Comments on: Climate Model Predictions and Adaptation http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4337 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Tom Fiddaman http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4337&cpage=1#comment-9509 Tom Fiddaman Sat, 15 Mar 2008 01:11:34 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4337#comment-9509 I absolutely agree with the premise (climate models aren't helpful on adaptive scales) and the conclusion (robust policies are needed) but I don't think the evidence presented here supports the argument. The RC/CSIRO comparison strikes me as a strawman that's neither internally consistent nor sufficient to prove the larger point about adaptation. The Manabe & Bryan study was hardly a forecast of a cooling southern ocean. Judging by the description in Manabe & Stouffer (2007), it wasn't even a 3D model, and I very much doubt the results were from an ensemble. The small degree of cooling mentioned by RC could be natural variability or otherwise spurious. The other statements in the RC post mention a cold Antarctic, but this could mean a variety of things, including "cooler than before" or "less warming than elsewhere." It seems from other posts (http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/08/regional-climate-projections ) that they mean the latter, a position which is consistent with the IPCC regional results, e.g. AR4 WG1 Ch.11 fig. 11.21. In that case, there's no evidence here that the CSIRO results are warmer or cooler than one would expect given the global trend, polar amplification, and the Southern Ocean thermal lag discussed at RC. Whether or not "climate scientists ... steadfastly refuse to describe what observations over the short term ... would be inconsistent with model predictions," it would be straightforward to check for oneself by visiting the PCMDI CMIP3 archive to retrieve raw model results. Given the availability of vast quantities of output, it should be quite easy to determine whether "all observations are consistent with predictions of climate models" and why. One need not invoke selfish or political motives to understand why there is predictive ambiguity on the adaptive time scale. That's to be expected given small short-term signals, large variability, and uncertain measurement of the initial system state. See http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/317/5835/207 It's exacerbated by the fact that regional downscaling is difficult and not uniformly available. I absolutely agree with the premise (climate models aren’t helpful on adaptive scales) and the conclusion (robust policies are needed) but I don’t think the evidence presented here supports the argument.

The RC/CSIRO comparison strikes me as a strawman that’s neither internally consistent nor sufficient to prove the larger point about adaptation.

The Manabe & Bryan study was hardly a forecast of a cooling southern ocean. Judging by the description in Manabe & Stouffer (2007), it wasn’t even a 3D model, and I very much doubt the results were from an ensemble. The small degree of cooling mentioned by RC could be natural variability or otherwise spurious.

The other statements in the RC post mention a cold Antarctic, but this could mean a variety of things, including “cooler than before” or “less warming than elsewhere.” It seems from other posts (http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/08/regional-climate-projections ) that they mean the latter, a position which is consistent with the IPCC regional results, e.g. AR4 WG1 Ch.11 fig. 11.21.

In that case, there’s no evidence here that the CSIRO results are warmer or cooler than one would expect given the global trend, polar amplification, and the Southern Ocean thermal lag discussed at RC.

Whether or not “climate scientists … steadfastly refuse to describe what observations over the short term … would be inconsistent with model predictions,” it would be straightforward to check for oneself by visiting the PCMDI CMIP3 archive to retrieve raw model results. Given the availability of vast quantities of output, it should be quite easy to determine whether “all observations are consistent with predictions of climate models” and why.

One need not invoke selfish or political motives to understand why there is predictive ambiguity on the adaptive time scale. That’s to be expected given small short-term signals, large variability, and uncertain measurement of the initial system state. See http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/317/5835/207
It’s exacerbated by the fact that regional downscaling is difficult and not uniformly available.

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By: OzMike http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4337&cpage=1#comment-9508 OzMike Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:37:03 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4337#comment-9508 Indur The full fourth IPCC report says Observations: Surface and Atmospheric Climate Change Page 239 Consistent with observed changes in surface temperature, there has been an almost worldwide reduction in glacier and small ice cap (not including Antarctica and Greenland) mass Page 247 If the GISS data for 2005 are averaged only south of 75̊N, then 2005 is cooler than 1998. In addition, there were relatively cool anomalies in 2005 in HadCRUT3 in parts of Antarctica and the Southern Ocean, where sea ice coverage (see Chapter 4) has not declined Page 248 Temperatures over mainland Antarctica (south of 65̊S) have not warmed in recent decades (Turner et al., 2005), but it is virtually certain that there has been strong warming over the last 50 years in the Antarctic Peninsula region Page 295 contrasting trends of strong warming in the Antarctic Peninsula and a cooling over most of interior Antarctica This observational data seems quite contradictory to your quotes and they are both from the IPCC. How can that be surely observations means the models are wrong. The parts they say are melting are up to 6500km from the pole so I hope they continue to do so. Indur
The full fourth IPCC report says

Observations: Surface and Atmospheric Climate Change Page 239

Consistent with
observed changes in surface temperature, there has been an
almost worldwide reduction in glacier and small ice cap (not
including Antarctica and Greenland) mass

Page 247

If the GISS data for 2005 are averaged only south
of 75̊N, then 2005 is cooler than 1998. In addition, there were
relatively cool anomalies in 2005 in HadCRUT3 in parts of
Antarctica and the Southern Ocean, where sea ice coverage (see
Chapter 4) has not declined

Page 248

Temperatures over mainland Antarctica (south of 65̊S) have
not warmed in recent decades (Turner et al., 2005), but it is
virtually certain that there has been strong warming over the
last 50 years in the Antarctic Peninsula region

Page 295

contrasting trends of strong warming in the Antarctic Peninsula
and a cooling over most of interior Antarctica

This observational data seems quite contradictory to your quotes and they are both from the IPCC. How can that be surely observations means the models are wrong. The parts they say are melting are up to 6500km from the pole so I hope they continue to do so.

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By: Indur Goklany http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4337&cpage=1#comment-9507 Indur Goklany Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:04:52 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4337#comment-9507 My apologies for the duplicate posting above. On a separate matter, I am puzzled by the statement: “A cold Antarctica and Southern Ocean do not contradict our models of global warming. For a long time the models have predicted just that.” This statement is an amalgam of a straw man argument and revisionism. Regarding the former (i.e., straw man argument), as far as I know, no one has ever claimed that the Antarctica and the Southern Ocean wouldn’t be cold. The issue is whether these areas would be warmer than they were. With regard to the revisionism aspect, it may be true that some models may have predicted that the Antarctica may cool, but this point was definitely not evident from any of the IPCC assessments. In fact, all the IPCC reports show the Antarctica warming: 1. IPCC’s 1990 Scientific Assessment notes that “All models show enhanced warming in higher latitudes in late Autumn and Winter” (p. 140). “Winter and annual warmings are largest in high latitudes” (p. 143). See also figures on pp. 140-142. 2. IPCC’s Climate Change1995, The Science of Climate Change. See Fig. 17 (p. 38), which compares the increase in temperature from 1955-1974 to 1975-1994 , and Figs. 22-23 which shows future temperature increases. 3. IPCC’s 2001 Synthesis Report shows model results indicating not only that that Antarctica would warm but that it would, by and large, warm greater than the average (pp. 65, 207, 208). 4. IPCC’s 2007 WG I Summary for Policy Makers also shows that the Antarctica would be warming (p. 15). My apologies for the duplicate posting above.

On a separate matter, I am puzzled by the statement: “A cold Antarctica and Southern Ocean do not contradict our models of global warming. For a long time the models have predicted just that.” This statement is an amalgam of a straw man argument and revisionism. Regarding the former (i.e., straw man argument), as far as I know, no one has ever claimed that the Antarctica and the Southern Ocean wouldn’t be cold. The issue is whether these areas would be warmer than they were.

With regard to the revisionism aspect, it may be true that some models may have predicted that the Antarctica may cool, but this point was definitely not evident from any of the IPCC assessments. In fact, all the IPCC reports show the Antarctica warming:

1. IPCC’s 1990 Scientific Assessment notes that “All models show enhanced warming in higher latitudes in late Autumn and Winter” (p. 140). “Winter and annual warmings are largest in high latitudes” (p. 143). See also figures on pp. 140-142.

2. IPCC’s Climate Change1995, The Science of Climate Change. See Fig. 17 (p. 38), which compares the increase in temperature from 1955-1974 to 1975-1994 , and Figs. 22-23 which shows future temperature increases.

3. IPCC’s 2001 Synthesis Report shows model results indicating not only that that Antarctica would warm but that it would, by and large, warm greater than the average (pp. 65, 207, 208).

4. IPCC’s 2007 WG I Summary for Policy Makers also shows that the Antarctica would be warming (p. 15).

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By: Indur Goklany http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4337&cpage=1#comment-9506 Indur Goklany Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:01:24 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4337#comment-9506 Roger, I couldn’t agree more with your conclusion that “given irreducible uncertainties robust decision making [regarding adaptation measures] is a better approach than seeking to optimize.” Long time ago, in a paper in Climatic Change, I had outlined a few criteria for selecting or developing adaptation strategies and measures. One of these criteria was that the measures/strategies should be “independent of results from site-specific impacts assessments, which are unlikely to be available with sufficient confidence at appropriate temporal and spatial resolutions for several years, for either their justification or implementation” (1). And it’s precisely because of this that my policy mantra over the past couple of decades has been: (a) reduce vulnerability to climate-sensitive problems that might be exacerbated by climate change (e.g., extreme events, hunger, vector-borne diseases), and (b) enhance society’s resilience in general to all manners of adversity including climate change by enhancing adaptive capacity (by broadly enhancing economic development, human capital and technological prowess). (1) Goklany, IM. 1995. “Strategies to Enhance Adaptability: Technological Change, Economic Growth and Free Trade.” Climatic Change 30: 427-449. Roger, I couldn’t agree more with your conclusion that “given irreducible uncertainties robust decision making [regarding adaptation measures] is a better approach than seeking to optimize.” Long time ago, in a paper in Climatic Change, I had outlined a few criteria for selecting or developing adaptation strategies and measures. One of these criteria was that the measures/strategies should be “independent of results from site-specific impacts assessments, which are unlikely to be available with sufficient confidence at appropriate temporal and spatial resolutions for several years, for either their justification or implementation” (1). And it’s precisely because of this that my policy mantra over the past couple of decades has been: (a) reduce vulnerability to climate-sensitive problems that might be exacerbated by climate change (e.g., extreme events, hunger, vector-borne diseases), and (b) enhance society’s resilience in general to all manners of adversity including climate change by enhancing adaptive capacity (by broadly enhancing economic development, human capital and technological prowess).

(1) Goklany, IM. 1995. “Strategies to Enhance Adaptability: Technological Change, Economic Growth and Free Trade.” Climatic Change 30: 427-449.

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By: Indur Goklany http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4337&cpage=1#comment-9505 Indur Goklany Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:58:09 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4337#comment-9505 Roger, I couldn’t agree more with your conclusion that “given irreducible uncertainties robust decision making [regarding adaptation measures] is a better approach than seeking to optimize.” Long time ago, in a paper in Climatic Change, I had outlined a few criteria for selecting or developing adaptation strategies and measures. One of these criteria was that the measures/strategies should be “independent of results from site-specific impacts assessments, which are unlikely to be available with sufficient confidence at appropriate temporal and spatial resolutions for several years, for either their justification or implementation” (1). And it’s precisely because of this that my policy mantra over the past couple of decades has been: (a) reduce vulnerability to climate-sensitive problems that might be exacerbated by climate change (e.g., extreme events, hunger, vector-borne diseases), and (b) enhance society’s resilience in general to all manners of adversity including climate change by enhancing adaptive capacity (by broadly enhancing economic development, human capital and technological prowess). (1) Goklany, IM. 1995. “Strategies to Enhance Adaptability: Technological Change, Economic Growth and Free Trade.” Climatic Change 30: 427-449. Roger, I couldn’t agree more with your conclusion that “given irreducible uncertainties robust decision making [regarding adaptation measures] is a better approach than seeking to optimize.” Long time ago, in a paper in Climatic Change, I had outlined a few criteria for selecting or developing adaptation strategies and measures. One of these criteria was that the measures/strategies should be “independent of results from site-specific impacts assessments, which are unlikely to be available with sufficient confidence at appropriate temporal and spatial resolutions for several years, for either their justification or implementation” (1). And it’s precisely because of this that my policy mantra over the past couple of decades has been: (a) reduce vulnerability to climate-sensitive problems that might be exacerbated by climate change (e.g., extreme events, hunger, vector-borne diseases), and (b) enhance society’s resilience in general to all manners of adversity including climate change by enhancing adaptive capacity (by broadly enhancing economic development, human capital and technological prowess).

(1) Goklany, IM. 1995. “Strategies to Enhance Adaptability: Technological Change, Economic Growth and Free Trade.” Climatic Change 30: 427-449.

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By: David B. Benson http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4337&cpage=1#comment-9504 David B. Benson Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:40:16 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4337#comment-9504 Holding everything else constant and just letting climate change is asking for trouble. We also have peak oil with peak coal to follow in 2025 CE, according to some. We seem to have a much greater demand for metals than the minable supply. The increasing population needs more potable water. And so it goes. Glad I'm not a regional planner. Roger Pielke, Jr., speaks my mind in the comment just above. Holding everything else constant and just letting climate change is asking for trouble. We also have peak oil with peak coal to follow in 2025 CE, according to some. We seem to have a much greater demand for metals than the minable supply. The increasing population needs more potable water. And so it goes.

Glad I’m not a regional planner. Roger Pielke, Jr., speaks my mind in the comment just above.

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By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4337&cpage=1#comment-9503 Roger Pielke, Jr. Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:30:17 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4337#comment-9503 docpine- Great question. My answer is that it depends. On hurricanes, and disaster more generally, I've argued that climate change uncertainties are lost in the noise of the far more significant influences of growing population and wealth at risk. But other contexts climate may prove decisive, e.g., for dryland farming. We've argued via our SPARC project that what needs to be done is a sensitivity analysis of impacts of concern to various factors that influence those impacts. Too often the climate impacts literature holds everything constant and lets climate vary/change to assess the unique impact of climate. This is fine, as far as it goes, but neglects the sensitivity to multiple factors. So yes we have to pay attention to climate change, but not climate change alone. This makes the job of the local and regional planner that much more difficult I fear. docpine- Great question. My answer is that it depends. On hurricanes, and disaster more generally, I’ve argued that climate change uncertainties are lost in the noise of the far more significant influences of growing population and wealth at risk.

But other contexts climate may prove decisive, e.g., for dryland farming. We’ve argued via our SPARC project that what needs to be done is a sensitivity analysis of impacts of concern to various factors that influence those impacts.

Too often the climate impacts literature holds everything constant and lets climate vary/change to assess the unique impact of climate. This is fine, as far as it goes, but neglects the sensitivity to multiple factors.

So yes we have to pay attention to climate change, but not climate change alone. This makes the job of the local and regional planner that much more difficult I fear.

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By: docpine http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4337&cpage=1#comment-9502 docpine Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:29:08 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4337#comment-9502 Here is my question. We are already uncertain about everything else about the future-population, economics, in fact we were uncertain about future environmental conditions even before we understood climate change as an issue. As a person engaged in planning at the local and regional level, I don't have time to keep up with the adaptation literature. Can I just fall back to the existing uncertainty in decisionmaking literature (scenarios, etc.) or is there something unique about uncertainty around climate change that is worth paying attention to? Do we know if people in the adaptation community are familiar with the existing literature on uncertainty in decisionmaking? Or are they possibly reinventing it? Here is my question. We are already uncertain about everything else about the future-population, economics, in fact we were uncertain about future environmental conditions even before we understood climate change as an issue.

As a person engaged in planning at the local and regional level, I don’t have time to keep up with the adaptation literature. Can I just fall back to the existing uncertainty in decisionmaking literature (scenarios, etc.) or is there something unique about uncertainty around climate change that is worth paying attention to? Do we know if people in the adaptation community are familiar with the existing literature on uncertainty in decisionmaking? Or are they possibly reinventing it?

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