Comments on: To Advocate, or Not? http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3760 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Dano http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3760&cpage=1#comment-3491 Dano Fri, 17 Mar 2006 00:47:05 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3760#comment-3491 I agree, BP, but Roger is asking questions about science policy and by extension, actions that are taken to effect change in the future at differing temporal scales; these questions of impacts on societal integrity are not answered or addressed by markets, which act on shorter temporal scales and reflect people buying things (else markets would install road, sewer and other long-range planning-related infrastructure). Certainly markets are partners at many scales, and the questions I hear (and presumably what Roger implies, although I don't speak for him [Roger breathes a sigh of relief here]) are the same as Roger asks (not what markets buy), and the implicit and explicit implications are that markets are a component of the system. Paul above points this out, and I originally commented because often markets get a free pass as if the 'wisdom' in markets is self-evident or the solution. Thinking ahead is the solution, and political will is needed to make it so. Best, sir, D I agree, BP, but Roger is asking questions about science policy and by extension, actions that are taken to effect change in the future at differing temporal scales; these questions of impacts on societal integrity are not answered or addressed by markets, which act on shorter temporal scales and reflect people buying things (else markets would install road, sewer and other long-range planning-related infrastructure).

Certainly markets are partners at many scales, and the questions I hear (and presumably what Roger implies, although I don’t speak for him [Roger breathes a sigh of relief here]) are the same as Roger asks (not what markets buy), and the implicit and explicit implications are that markets are a component of the system. Paul above points this out, and I originally commented because often markets get a free pass as if the ‘wisdom’ in markets is self-evident or the solution. Thinking ahead is the solution, and political will is needed to make it so.

Best, sir,

D

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By: Biopolitical http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3760&cpage=1#comment-3490 Biopolitical Thu, 16 Mar 2006 18:39:04 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3760#comment-3490 Dano, of course we must ask the same questions about markets and about governments. I am not arguing that markets lead to perfect outcomes. I am arguing that information flows more smoothly in markets than in governments, and that markets adopt findings faster and more efficiently than governments. (Additionally, for at least most functions markets have less severe externalities than governments. Free markets also have ways to internalize externalities without the need of having someone in charge.) Dano, of course we must ask the same questions about markets and about governments. I am not arguing that markets lead to perfect outcomes. I am arguing that information flows more smoothly in markets than in governments, and that markets adopt findings faster and more efficiently than governments.

(Additionally, for at least most functions markets have less severe externalities than governments. Free markets also have ways to internalize externalities without the need of having someone in charge.)

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By: Dano http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3760&cpage=1#comment-3489 Dano Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:20:21 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3760#comment-3489 Good, compelling comments and thank you Roger for the good link. I also wonder why we don't ask Biopolitical's questions about markets. Because I do, also, wonder about markets and information flowing "smoothly". I find information to be highly asymmetrical, and if it did flow "smoothly" we wouldn't have market failures, inequality, etc. because we cannot calculate Pareto optima without knowing the price of externalities. And how would a system with no one in charge 'adopt' findings without pricing externalities? Best, D Good, compelling comments and thank you Roger for the good link.

I also wonder why we don’t ask Biopolitical’s questions about markets.

Because I do, also, wonder about markets and information flowing “smoothly”. I find information to be highly asymmetrical, and if it did flow “smoothly” we wouldn’t have market failures, inequality, etc. because we cannot calculate Pareto optima without knowing the price of externalities. And how would a system with no one in charge ‘adopt’ findings without pricing externalities?

Best,

D

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By: Paul Dougherty http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3760&cpage=1#comment-3488 Paul Dougherty Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:41:05 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3760#comment-3488 Fukuyama's mea culpa is indeed instructive. In good Trotskyite tradition the neocons took an intellectual concept and attempted to force history. Competing viewpoints were treated with disdain and a mountain of non-supporting information was ignored. As a result we got the tragedy of Iraq. "But it's not clear that virtue necessarily lies on the side of intellectuals who think they are simply being honest." If only we could get this message through to the keepers of the paradigm on the GW debate, it might help them. I can see the merit in Biochemical's viewpoint above but I would like to point out that government has a role even if it is just as a source of big bucks. The NRC has produced huge good. The frustrations of advocacy will never go away. In the matrix of human society courses let alone objectives are never clear. It is like a chaotic system. You input and It spins around and does nothing. Then one day. boom, results emerge. Patience hurts. Fukuyama’s mea culpa is indeed instructive. In good Trotskyite tradition the neocons took an intellectual concept and attempted to force history. Competing viewpoints were treated with disdain and a mountain of non-supporting information was ignored. As a result we got the tragedy of Iraq.

“But it’s not clear that virtue necessarily lies on the side of intellectuals who think they are simply being honest.” If only we could get this message through to the keepers of the paradigm on the GW debate, it might help them.

I can see the merit in Biochemical’s viewpoint above but I would like to point out that government has a role even if it is just as a source of big bucks. The NRC has produced huge good.

The frustrations of advocacy will never go away. In the matrix of human society courses let alone objectives are never clear. It is like a chaotic system. You input and It spins around and does nothing. Then one day. boom, results emerge. Patience hurts.

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By: Roger Pielke Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3760&cpage=1#comment-3487 Roger Pielke Jr. Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:37:19 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3760#comment-3487 Francis Fukuyama on intellectuals in policy debates: "I believe that a democracy is better off having intellectuals pay systematic attention to policy issues, even if it is occasionally corrupting. Having to deal not with ideal solutions but with the real world of power and politics is a good discipline for an intellectual. There is a fine line between being realistic and selling one's soul, and in the case of the Iraq war many neoconservatives got so preoccupied with policy advocacy that they blinded themselves to reality. But it's not clear that virtue necessarily lies on the side of intellectuals who think they are simply being honest." http://www.the-american-interest.com/cms/bhl.cfm Francis Fukuyama on intellectuals in policy debates:

“I believe that a democracy is better off having intellectuals pay systematic attention to policy issues, even if it is occasionally corrupting. Having to deal not with ideal solutions but with the real world of power and politics is a good discipline for an intellectual. There is a fine line between being realistic and selling one’s soul, and in the case of the Iraq war many neoconservatives got so preoccupied with policy advocacy that they blinded themselves to reality. But it’s not clear that virtue necessarily lies on the side of intellectuals who think they are simply being honest.”

http://www.the-american-interest.com/cms/bhl.cfm

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By: Roger Pielke Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3760&cpage=1#comment-3486 Roger Pielke Jr. Tue, 14 Mar 2006 20:47:02 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3760#comment-3486 Marcelino- Thanks for your comments. Bozeman and Sarewitz (2005) take on this question in a paper titled: Public values and public failure in US science policy http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/beech/spp/2005/00000032/00000002/art00003 You can get an earlier version free here: http://www.cspo.org/ourlibrary/documents/efficient.markets.pdf Marcelino- Thanks for your comments. Bozeman and Sarewitz (2005) take on this question in a paper titled:

Public values and public failure in US science policy
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/beech/spp/2005/00000032/00000002/art00003

You can get an earlier version free here:

http://www.cspo.org/ourlibrary/documents/efficient.markets.pdf

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By: Biopolitical http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3760&cpage=1#comment-3485 Biopolitical Tue, 14 Mar 2006 19:05:01 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3760#comment-3485 "What mechanism? How created? Run by whom?" It is revealing that we don't ask those questions about things done in markets. Nobody creates or run markets. Markets emerge and run smoothly with nobody in charge. In markets information flows smoothly because nobody is in charge of moving it. Good ideas swiftly turn into action because individual people have the right incentives. Right incentives are "the mechanism". Governments lack the information and the incentives to take full advantage of human ingenuity. In the case of malaria, I would let private firms do the research and get the profits. The expectation of profits is "the mechanism". The expectation of government getting in the way of profits prevents people from making the right efforts. “What mechanism? How created? Run by whom?”

It is revealing that we don’t ask those questions about things done in markets. Nobody creates or run markets. Markets emerge and run smoothly with nobody in charge. In markets information flows smoothly because nobody is in charge of moving it. Good ideas swiftly turn into action because individual people have the right incentives. Right incentives are “the mechanism”.

Governments lack the information and the incentives to take full advantage of human ingenuity. In the case of malaria, I would let private firms do the research and get the profits. The expectation of profits is “the mechanism”. The expectation of government getting in the way of profits prevents people from making the right efforts.

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