Comments on: Political Plate Tectonics and Energy Policy http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3727 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: mlhjl http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3727&cpage=1#comment-3005 mlhjl Thu, 24 May 2007 20:31:00 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3727#comment-3005 I think the purchase of a hybrid is motivated less and less by "virtue" and more and more by economics. After all, with gasoline approaching the $3-4 mark on a consistent basis many Americans are adding hybrid vehicles to their list of products to consider. Together with Toyota's announcement of many new hybrids outside of the "eco-friendly box" (like the new http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2007/05/16/toyota-tundra-hybrid-no-later-than-2010/ tundra hybrid) and the statements from the Big 3 that they'll be adding hybrids to all of their product lines in the coming decade, and it's safe to say the hybrid is no longer about being green. It's about saving green too. And the virtue of savings is definitely debatable. I think the purchase of a hybrid is motivated less and less by “virtue” and more and more by economics. After all, with gasoline approaching the $3-4 mark on a consistent basis many Americans are adding hybrid vehicles to their list of products to consider.

Together with Toyota’s announcement of many new hybrids outside of the “eco-friendly box” (like the new http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2007/05/16/toyota-tundra-hybrid-no-later-than-2010/ tundra hybrid) and the statements from the Big 3 that they’ll be adding hybrids to all of their product lines in the coming decade, and it’s safe to say the hybrid is no longer about being green. It’s about saving green too.

And the virtue of savings is definitely debatable.

]]> By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3727&cpage=1#comment-3004 Mark Bahner Mon, 13 Feb 2006 00:35:08 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3727#comment-3004 "Try Google Mark." OK, plenty of articles have numbers. http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=106644 But how does Ford only manage 19.5 mpg, given the fact that the passenger car CAFE is 27.5 mpg, and the light duty trucks/SUVs CAFE is 20.7 mpg? http://www.policyalmanac.org/environment/archive/crs_cafe_standards.shtml Do they pay fines, or do the numbers count something that isn't covered under passenger cars or light duty trucks/SUVs (e.g. heavy duty trucks)? “Try Google Mark.”

OK, plenty of articles have numbers.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=106644

But how does Ford only manage 19.5 mpg, given the fact that the passenger car CAFE is 27.5 mpg, and the light duty trucks/SUVs CAFE is 20.7 mpg?

http://www.policyalmanac.org/environment/archive/crs_cafe_standards.shtml

Do they pay fines, or do the numbers count something that isn’t covered under passenger cars or light duty trucks/SUVs (e.g. heavy duty trucks)?

]]> By: Rabett http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3727&cpage=1#comment-3003 Rabett Sun, 12 Feb 2006 04:27:13 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3727#comment-3003 Try Google Mark. Try Google Mark.

]]> By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3727&cpage=1#comment-3002 Mark Bahner Sat, 11 Feb 2006 02:39:54 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3727#comment-3002 "While we are at it would anyone care to comment on the fact that for 2005 General Motors fleet mileage is 20.5 mpg, Toyota's is 23.5, Honda is 25.1 and Ford's is 19.5 mpg." I'll comment: Where did you get those numbers, and what do they represent? I don't understand the numbers, since the CAFE for passenger vehicles and light trucks/SUVs is above GM's and Ford's numbers. “While we are at it would anyone care to comment on the fact that for 2005 General Motors fleet mileage is 20.5 mpg, Toyota’s is 23.5, Honda is 25.1 and Ford’s is 19.5 mpg.”

I’ll comment: Where did you get those numbers, and what do they represent? I don’t understand the numbers, since the CAFE for passenger vehicles and light trucks/SUVs is above GM’s and Ford’s numbers.

]]> By: Rabett http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3727&cpage=1#comment-3001 Rabett Fri, 10 Feb 2006 03:49:30 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3727#comment-3001 I am still mystified by the moral calculus here. We should blame those who conciously buy hybrids, because others buy SUVs? Because Toyota sells at both ends of the consumption curve we should blame those who buy hybrids? Black is white? You might also notice the weasel words in the article: "For now, this is less true for Toyota's cars, because they're above the mileage requirement. But Toyota's trucks and the American automakers are right near the limits" which clearly shows that the hybrids ARE having an effect, but tries to apple orange this away. While we are at it would anyone care to comment on the fact that for 2005 General Motors fleet mileage is 20.5 mpg, Toyota's is 23.5, Honda is 25.1 and Ford's is 19.5 mpg. Guess who sells hybrids? Toyota and Honda. I am still mystified by the moral calculus here. We should blame those who conciously buy hybrids, because others buy SUVs? Because Toyota sells at both ends of the consumption curve we should blame those who buy hybrids? Black is white?

You might also notice the weasel words in the article: “For now, this is less true for Toyota’s cars, because they’re above the mileage requirement. But Toyota’s trucks and the American automakers are right near the limits” which clearly shows that the hybrids ARE having an effect, but tries to apple orange this away.

While we are at it would anyone care to comment on the fact that for 2005 General Motors fleet mileage is 20.5 mpg, Toyota’s is 23.5, Honda is 25.1 and Ford’s is 19.5 mpg. Guess who sells hybrids? Toyota and Honda.

]]> By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3727&cpage=1#comment-3000 Mark Bahner Fri, 10 Feb 2006 01:08:57 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3727#comment-3000 Lisa Dilling writes, "But surprisingly, it did not mention that CAFE standards have been stagnant for decades, and that even though viable (even cool!) technology exists to make cars and trucks more efficient, politicians still refuse to raise the standards." This is the point that Dano could remonstrate you by informing you of his belief in and support of the idea that politicians represent the "voice of majority." But my guess is he won't. ;-) So instead, let me pose this hypothetical. Suppose you were transformed in Queen of the U.S. And no nasty Congress to hold you back. What would you do regarding CAFE, and what do you think it would accomplish? The current CAFE requirements are 27.5 mpg for passenger cars, and 20.7 mpg for light trucks (and SUVs). And the current amount of gasoline consumed in the U.S. is approximately 130 billion gallons. If you were Queen, what would you do to CAFE requirements over the next 20 years...and what do you think the changes you would mandate would do? Lisa Dilling writes, “But surprisingly, it did not mention that CAFE standards have been stagnant for decades, and that even though viable (even cool!) technology exists to make cars and trucks more efficient, politicians still refuse to raise the standards.”

This is the point that Dano could remonstrate you by informing you of his belief in and support of the idea that politicians represent the “voice of majority.” But my guess is he won’t. ;-)

So instead, let me pose this hypothetical. Suppose you were transformed in Queen of the U.S. And no nasty Congress to hold you back. What would you do regarding CAFE, and what do you think it would accomplish?

The current CAFE requirements are 27.5 mpg for passenger cars, and 20.7 mpg for light trucks (and SUVs). And the current amount of gasoline consumed in the U.S. is approximately 130 billion gallons.

If you were Queen, what would you do to CAFE requirements over the next 20 years…and what do you think the changes you would mandate would do?

]]> By: Lisa Dilling http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3727&cpage=1#comment-2999 Lisa Dilling Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:49:53 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3727#comment-2999 well, seems like it has become fashionable in the last few years to dump on those trying to be environmentally conscious. The article is right of course, about the total emissions of the fleet being what matters. But surprisingly, it did not mention that CAFE standards have been stagnant for decades, and that even though viable (even cool!) technology exists to make cars and trucks more efficient, politicians still refuse to raise the standards. To me, the Prius and other hybrids are de facto demonstrations that there just is no excuse any more to resist raising efficiency standards across the board. The hybrid isn't the problem. The problem is the low end, inefficient vehicles, lack of "market signals" and, yes, I agree, the lack of a true national energy policy. well, seems like it has become fashionable in the last few years to dump on those trying to be environmentally conscious. The article is right of course, about the total emissions of the fleet being what matters. But surprisingly, it did not mention that CAFE standards have been stagnant for decades, and that even though viable (even cool!) technology exists to make cars and trucks more efficient, politicians still refuse to raise the standards. To me, the Prius and other hybrids are de facto demonstrations that there just is no excuse any more to resist raising efficiency standards across the board. The hybrid isn’t the problem. The problem is the low end, inefficient vehicles, lack of “market signals” and, yes, I agree, the lack of a true national energy policy.

]]> By: kevin http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3727&cpage=1#comment-2998 kevin Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:13:05 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3727#comment-2998 eli, the point is that US policy revolves around CAFE standards, the two key words in that acronym being Corporate and Average. So if a Big 3 ups one model to 30 mpgs, that gives them latitude to down one model to ... well, something low. And the net is that nothing is getting any greener. But if your sentiment is "If two Michigan Senators can exert absolute control over CAFE standards and thus leave consumers with zero control over the emissions of the fleet, why bug them for at least being personally virtuous and trying *something*?" then I agree with you. eli, the point is that US policy revolves around CAFE standards, the two key words in that acronym being Corporate and Average. So if a Big 3 ups one model to 30 mpgs, that gives them latitude to down one model to … well, something low. And the net is that nothing is getting any greener.

But if your sentiment is “If two Michigan Senators can exert absolute control over CAFE standards and thus leave consumers with zero control over the emissions of the fleet, why bug them for at least being personally virtuous and trying *something*?” then I agree with you.

]]> By: Rabett http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3727&cpage=1#comment-2997 Rabett Thu, 09 Feb 2006 01:32:56 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3727#comment-2997 Roger this nonsense would get a high school freshman flayed alive by his math and english teachers. The buyer of a Prius is not using as much gas as he or she would with a normal vehicle let alone an SUV. Or have you somehow assigned the buyer moral responsibility for Toyota and your actions? Roger this nonsense would get a high school freshman flayed alive by his math and english teachers. The buyer of a Prius is not using as much gas as he or she would with a normal vehicle let alone an SUV. Or have you somehow assigned the buyer moral responsibility for Toyota and your actions?

]]> By: Brad Hoge http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3727&cpage=1#comment-2996 Brad Hoge Wed, 08 Feb 2006 16:06:24 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3727#comment-2996 President Bush is all about "sending the right message", so one would think the virtue of driving an expensive bumper sticker encouraging more responsible energy consumption isn't necessarily invalidated by the duplicity of manufacturers and law makers. Hopefully the trend towards more hybrids on the roads will eventually affect the larger marketplace. Until then, Ford Motor Companies snickers over my naivety will fall on defiantly patient ears, waiting for the invisible hand of the economic engine they so piggishly rely upon. President Bush is all about “sending the right message”, so one would think the virtue of driving an expensive bumper sticker encouraging more responsible energy consumption isn’t necessarily invalidated by the duplicity of manufacturers and law makers. Hopefully the trend towards more hybrids on the roads will eventually affect the larger marketplace. Until then, Ford Motor Companies snickers over my naivety will fall on defiantly patient ears, waiting for the invisible hand of the economic engine they so piggishly rely upon.

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