Comments on: The Battle for U.S. Public Opinion on Climate Change is Over http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4189 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: TN http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4189&cpage=1#comment-8928 TN Wed, 02 May 2007 14:03:28 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4189#comment-8928 Roger, What is your definition of a skeptic? Anyone who doesn't believe with the IPCC summary that scientifically there exists at least 90% confidence that mankinds attribution on 20th century temperature increases is greater than 50%? Would your dad fall under it? Roger,

What is your definition of a skeptic? Anyone who doesn’t believe with the IPCC summary that scientifically there exists at least 90% confidence that mankinds attribution on 20th century temperature increases is greater than 50%? Would your dad fall under it?

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By: TokyoTom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4189&cpage=1#comment-8927 TokyoTom Tue, 01 May 2007 09:27:21 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4189#comment-8927 Now that Americans seem to be convinced the AGW is a real phenomenon, will we end up with a least-cost solution from our legislators and diplomats (and one that focusses on the need for governance reform and adaptation in poorer nations) or an ineffectual gravy train, with the pork spigots directed to more wasteful spending? The wisest solutions will target creating costs for net CO2 emissions and other forcing, while creating incentives for sequestration and development of new technologies - without the government taking a direct role in directing technology investments. But since the US experiences some benefits from climate change, I am concerned that our Congresscritters may be more interested in more government spending without changing fossil fuel consumption incentives, and without really focussing on China or India, much less the other nations that need to become more affluent in order to adapt to the changing climate. Yes, the battle for spoils will soon be on. Let's try to minimize the wastage, and strive for effectiveness. Now that Americans seem to be convinced the AGW is a real phenomenon, will we end up with a least-cost solution from our legislators and diplomats (and one that focusses on the need for governance reform and adaptation in poorer nations) or an ineffectual gravy train, with the pork spigots directed to more wasteful spending?

The wisest solutions will target creating costs for net CO2 emissions and other forcing, while creating incentives for sequestration and development of new technologies – without the government taking a direct role in directing technology investments.

But since the US experiences some benefits from climate change, I am concerned that our Congresscritters may be more interested in more government spending without changing fossil fuel consumption incentives, and without really focussing on China or India, much less the other nations that need to become more affluent in order to adapt to the changing climate.

Yes, the battle for spoils will soon be on. Let’s try to minimize the wastage, and strive for effectiveness.

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By: TokyoTom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4189&cpage=1#comment-8926 TokyoTom Tue, 01 May 2007 09:24:30 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4189#comment-8926 Now that Americans seem to be convinced the AGW is a real phenomenon, will we end up with a least-cost solution from our legislators and diplomats (and one that focusses on the need for governance reform and adaptation in poorer nations) or an ineffectual gravy train, with the pork spigots directed to more wasteful spending? The wisest solutions will target creating costs for net CO2 emissions and other forcing, while creating incentives for sequestration and development of new technologies - without the government taking a direct role in directing technology investments. But since the US experiences some benefits from climate change, I am concerned that our Congresscritters may be more interested in more government spending without changing fossil fuel consumption incentives, and without really focussing on China or India, much less the other nations that need to become more affluent in order to adapt to the changing climate. Now that Americans seem to be convinced the AGW is a real phenomenon, will we end up with a least-cost solution from our legislators and diplomats (and one that focusses on the need for governance reform and adaptation in poorer nations) or an ineffectual gravy train, with the pork spigots directed to more wasteful spending?

The wisest solutions will target creating costs for net CO2 emissions and other forcing, while creating incentives for sequestration and development of new technologies – without the government taking a direct role in directing technology investments.

But since the US experiences some benefits from climate change, I am concerned that our Congresscritters may be more interested in more government spending without changing fossil fuel consumption incentives, and without really focussing on China or India, much less the other nations that need to become more affluent in order to adapt to the changing climate.

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By: Jim Manzi http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4189&cpage=1#comment-8925 Jim Manzi Tue, 01 May 2007 05:11:19 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4189#comment-8925 Bud: I agree with you that it is funny that very few commentators focus on this. I wrote an article for National Review that speaks about this, that you can find here: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZmViY2Y3YzY1YmVkYTg4NjczODhkYWU1Mjg1YzhjMTI= The key relevant passage is: "The current summary indicates that the IPCC is “90% confident” that we have caused global warming. The summary further implies that if we double the concentration of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere, the IPCC is 90 percent onfident that we will cause further warming of 3° C +/- 1.5° C. But what do these statements of confidence really mean? They are not derived mathematically from the type of normal probability distributions that are used when, for example, determining the margin of error in a political poll (say, +/- 5%). IPCC estimates of “confidence” are really what we would mean by this word in everyday conversation—a subjective statement of opinion. This is a very big deal, since bounding the uncertainty in climate predictions is central to deciding what, if anything, we should do about them. Jim Bud:

I agree with you that it is funny that very few commentators focus on this.

I wrote an article for National Review that speaks about this, that you can find here:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZmViY2Y3YzY1YmVkYTg4NjczODhkYWU1Mjg1YzhjMTI=

The key relevant passage is:

“The current summary indicates that the IPCC is “90% confident” that we have caused global warming. The summary further implies that if we double the concentration of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere, the IPCC is 90 percent onfident that we will cause further warming of 3° C +/- 1.5° C.

But what do these statements of confidence really mean? They are not derived mathematically from the type of normal probability distributions that are used when, for example, determining the margin of error in a political poll (say, +/- 5%). IPCC estimates of “confidence” are really what we would mean by this word in everyday conversation—a subjective statement of opinion. This is a very big deal, since bounding the uncertainty in climate predictions is central to deciding what, if anything, we should do about them.

Jim

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By: bud http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4189&cpage=1#comment-8924 bud Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:02:05 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4189#comment-8924 So, the american public has been convinced/hornswoggled. Whoopee. What's that Lincoln quote about "some" and "all"? Put me in the "!some" category. I've worked on and with physical simulation for too long not to recognize how tenuous all of these "conclusions" really are. And 90%! I love that part. I read carefully through that summary, and could find no reference to how that number was calculated. IMNSHO, someone remembered the aphorism that "If you can't describe it numerically, it isn't science" and said, "We need a number here, gentlemen, to protect our phoney baloney jobs." "90% sounds good, it's impressive, but we can wiggle out of it when we're wrong." "Let's go with it." Given the complete dearth of hard information in the "Summary", I'd say my scenario is just as likely as not. So, the american public has been convinced/hornswoggled. Whoopee. What’s that Lincoln quote about “some” and “all”? Put me in the “!some” category. I’ve worked on and with physical simulation for too long not to recognize how tenuous all of these “conclusions” really are.

And 90%! I love that part. I read carefully through that summary, and could find no reference to how that number was calculated. IMNSHO, someone remembered the aphorism that “If you can’t describe it numerically, it isn’t science” and said, “We need a number here, gentlemen, to protect our phoney baloney jobs.” “90% sounds good, it’s impressive, but we can wiggle out of it when we’re wrong.” “Let’s go with it.” Given the complete dearth of hard information in the “Summary”, I’d say my scenario is just as likely as not.

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By: MT http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4189&cpage=1#comment-8923 MT Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:20:47 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4189#comment-8923 I am confused. Since when did polls and public consensus mean SCIENTISTS or policy makers should end their questioning? There was a time when everyone thought the world was flat, but that did not stop Galileo. Please show me proof that human activity alone through forced CO2 will cause unnatural havoc to humanity. I am extremely concerned about oceanic methane being released from the sea's depths as the result of increasing temperature. I am in favor of alternative energy (for reasons including national security) and efforts to reduce humanity's negative impact on Planet Earth. What disturbs me are polls and public opinion trumping real "scientific consensus". In the seventies and eighties, many pundits talked of an eventual ice age, earth-destroying meteor impacts and even the eventual disruption of our magnetic shield that protects us from lethal solar radiation. Why is CO2 not simply trapped in increased biomass? How do we decide if losing bees to cell phone transmissions is worse than a warming of half a degree? Without clearly understanding the actual mechanisms of GW through models that include all significant variables, how do we create intelligent policies of mitigation and adaptation? I think it is prudent to demand the same bar we place on evolutionary theory that today is still rejected by much of the world. The fact that the UN now calls GW theory, Gore's GW theory shows an uncomfortable blurring between polls and scientific inquiry. As we leave comments here, there exist today efficient solar cells that power our Mars explorers, Norwegian gas extraction that sequesters CO2, energy plants that can sequester the CO2 from coal and coal tar (as opposed to the dangerous proliferation of more nuclear power plants), cars that can run on biofuel and machines that can capture the power of wind and waves. It is not a stretch to move now towards reducing humanity’s GHG, but to close the book of the science of human induced GW or the natural mechanism propelling us towards an unknown future is both foolish and unscientific. I am confused. Since when did polls and public consensus mean SCIENTISTS or policy makers should end their questioning? There was a time when everyone thought the world was flat, but that did not stop Galileo. Please show me proof that human activity alone through forced CO2 will cause unnatural havoc to humanity. I am extremely concerned about oceanic methane being released from the sea’s depths as the result of increasing temperature. I am in favor of alternative energy (for reasons including national security) and efforts to reduce humanity’s negative impact on Planet Earth. What disturbs me are polls and public opinion trumping real “scientific consensus”. In the seventies and eighties, many pundits talked of an eventual ice age, earth-destroying meteor impacts and even the eventual disruption of our magnetic shield that protects us from lethal solar radiation. Why is CO2 not simply trapped in increased biomass? How do we decide if losing bees to cell phone transmissions is worse than a warming of half a degree? Without clearly understanding the actual mechanisms of GW through models that include all significant variables, how do we create intelligent policies of mitigation and adaptation? I think it is prudent to demand the same bar we place on evolutionary theory that today is still rejected by much of the world. The fact that the UN now calls GW theory, Gore’s GW theory shows an uncomfortable blurring between polls and scientific inquiry.

As we leave comments here, there exist today efficient solar cells that power our Mars explorers, Norwegian gas extraction that sequesters CO2, energy plants that can sequester the CO2 from coal and coal tar (as opposed to the dangerous proliferation of more nuclear power plants), cars that can run on biofuel and machines that can capture the power of wind and waves. It is not a stretch to move now towards reducing humanity’s GHG, but to close the book of the science of human induced GW or the natural mechanism propelling us towards an unknown future is both foolish and unscientific.

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By: Francis Sedgemore http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4189&cpage=1#comment-8922 Francis Sedgemore Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:16:36 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4189#comment-8922 "It's the deafening silence of the scientific community, science writers and journalists in face of this rather blatent call for censorship that speaks volumes." [Benny Peiser] Not this science writer, but the only media interest I've raised is from the Guardian's Comment is Free blog. Given the tone of debate on that site, I'm not sure I want to accept the commission. I criticised Ward and the open letter in the Psci-com email list, and was shouted down for my troubles. Part of this was due to me drawing a link between the object of Ward's opprobrium - Martin Durkin - and an ultra-left political clique that has an influence in the British science communication community out of all proportion to its numbers. But Ward, in the email list discussion, is being very aggressive toward those who do not like his open letter. I can't quote directly from the list discussion as that is a members-only forum. However, I did publish two blogs on the matter: http://skysong.eu/2007/04/science-advocacy-and-political-lobbying/ http://skysong.eu/2007/04/spittle-flecked-invective-pfui/ Why the silence from others? Many and varied reasons, I'm sure, but one may be professional self-interest. I've certainly done myself no favours in speaking out. “It’s the deafening silence of the scientific community, science writers and journalists in face of this rather blatent call for censorship that speaks volumes.” [Benny Peiser]

Not this science writer, but the only media interest I’ve raised is from the Guardian’s Comment is Free blog. Given the tone of debate on that site, I’m not sure I want to accept the commission.

I criticised Ward and the open letter in the Psci-com email list, and was shouted down for my troubles. Part of this was due to me drawing a link between the object of Ward’s opprobrium – Martin Durkin – and an ultra-left political clique that has an influence in the British science communication community out of all proportion to its numbers. But Ward, in the email list discussion, is being very aggressive toward those who do not like his open letter.

I can’t quote directly from the list discussion as that is a members-only forum. However, I did publish two blogs on the matter:

http://skysong.eu/2007/04/science-advocacy-and-political-lobbying/
http://skysong.eu/2007/04/spittle-flecked-invective-pfui/

Why the silence from others? Many and varied reasons, I’m sure, but one may be professional self-interest. I’ve certainly done myself no favours in speaking out.

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By: Tom Gray http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4189&cpage=1#comment-8921 Tom Gray Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:38:24 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4189#comment-8921 The most recent issue of Skeptical Inquirer, The Magazine of Science and Reason Has "Global Warming, a Position Paper" proudly(?) displayed on its cover. Even the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry has apparently been overcome by the wave of media disaster predictions. The most recent issue of Skeptical Inquirer, The Magazine of Science and Reason Has “Global Warming, a Position Paper” proudly(?) displayed on its cover. Even the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry has apparently been overcome by the wave of media disaster predictions.

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By: Harry Haymuss http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4189&cpage=1#comment-8920 Harry Haymuss Sun, 29 Apr 2007 03:18:31 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4189#comment-8920 Which means they're 90% sure that 51% of "global warming" is due to ghg increases, right? Considering what we know we don't know about clouds and precipitation, and the fact that every percent change in global precipitation is worth 0.78 w/m^2, and all but the most arrogant of us knows there are things we don't know that we don't know, 90% is a little high, I think... Which means they’re 90% sure that 51% of “global warming” is due to ghg increases, right?

Considering what we know we don’t know about clouds and precipitation, and the fact that every percent change in global precipitation is worth 0.78 w/m^2, and all but the most arrogant of us knows there are things we don’t know that we don’t know, 90% is a little high, I think…

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By: Svet http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4189&cpage=1#comment-8919 Svet Sun, 29 Apr 2007 02:18:10 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4189#comment-8919 The recent IPCC "Summary for Policymakers" stated that the likelihood that "most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures" is due to "the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations" is 90%. Now 90% certain is fairly certain but does it put the issue beyond all reasonable doubt? I am inclined to think that 90% certainty is sufficient to justify some action but it is not enough to justify the shutting down of all serious debate. There seems to be a weird disconnect between the IPCC report and the public commentary. Or am I missing something? The recent IPCC “Summary for Policymakers” stated that the likelihood that “most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures” is due to “the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations” is 90%. Now 90% certain is fairly certain but does it put the issue beyond all reasonable doubt? I am inclined to think that 90% certainty is sufficient to justify some action but it is not enough to justify the shutting down of all serious debate. There seems to be a weird disconnect between the IPCC report and the public commentary. Or am I missing something?

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