Comments on: Tim Flannery on Engaging Skeptics http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5007 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: TokyoTom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5007&cpage=1#comment-12685 TokyoTom Wed, 04 Mar 2009 08:20:24 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5007#comment-12685 Roger, I will agree with you and TIm Flannery. However, I would simply note that in a political battle our emotions rather naturally heat up, so it is quite difficult to keep a cool head and a focus on being effective. Roger, I will agree with you and TIm Flannery.

However, I would simply note that in a political battle our emotions rather naturally heat up, so it is quite difficult to keep a cool head and a focus on being effective.

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By: kkloor http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5007&cpage=1#comment-12554 kkloor Sun, 01 Mar 2009 01:19:24 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5007#comment-12554 For days I have been arguing that the fury hurled at Revkin and Will has ranged from histrionic to misplaced. See, for example, this: www.collide-a-scape.com/2009/02/27/climate-furies/ and this: www.collide-a-scape.com/2009/02/25/passion-of-the-scold/ It's been interesting to see how many bloggers from all over the spectrum have taken the bait. But I think it's important to draw a distinction between two different camps on the same side of the debate. For example, what motivates a highly respected science journalist, such as Carl Zimmer, from stepping into the fray, is quite different than what motivates a bloviator such as Joe Romm. Zimmer (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/), I believe, is just plain offended by Will's columns and feels compelled, as a science writer, to set the record straight. Romm (http://climateprogress.org/), though, is an advocate/activist and he has been so zealous and over the top in his responses that it's impossible to take him seriously. He sees a climate bogeyman lurking everywhere and screams like a five-year old child. (He's still urging, at every opportunity,that Andy Revkin apologize to Al Gore.) So I would just caution people not to lump all the George Will bashers together. For days I have been arguing that the fury hurled at Revkin and Will has ranged from histrionic to misplaced.

See, for example, this: http://www.collide-a-scape.com/2009/02/27/climate-furies/

and this: http://www.collide-a-scape.com/2009/02/25/passion-of-the-scold/

It’s been interesting to see how many bloggers from all over the spectrum have taken the bait. But I think it’s important to draw a distinction between two different camps on the same side of the debate. For example, what motivates a highly respected science journalist, such as Carl Zimmer, from stepping into the fray, is quite different than what motivates a bloviator such as Joe Romm.

Zimmer (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/), I believe, is just plain offended by Will’s columns and feels compelled, as a science writer, to set the record straight.

Romm (http://climateprogress.org/), though, is an advocate/activist and he has been so zealous and over the top in his responses that it’s impossible to take him seriously. He sees a climate bogeyman lurking everywhere and screams like a five-year old child. (He’s still urging, at every opportunity,that Andy Revkin apologize to Al Gore.)

So I would just caution people not to lump all the George Will bashers together.

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By: stan http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5007&cpage=1#comment-12550 stan Sat, 28 Feb 2009 20:31:04 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5007#comment-12550 I think you're too hard on the Methodists and Baptists. Compared to AGW, their arguments are less driven by faith. ;) I think you’re too hard on the Methodists and Baptists. Compared to AGW, their arguments are less driven by faith. ;)

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By: Maurice Garoutte http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5007&cpage=1#comment-12548 Maurice Garoutte Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:29:08 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5007#comment-12548 Stan, Well said; but I would like to modify your last line a little. Science is the loser. And that has hurt us all. When the United Nations (a political organization) sponsored scientific research that justified a political position (more central control) the separation between science and politics was blurred. When carbon control became a liberal vs. conservative issue the science was indistinguishable from politics. Last week the countries best known climate scientist called for civil disobedience to advance a political cause. Only the politics remain. What passes for dialog today between the proponents of AGW and the skeptics reminds me of the arguments between Methodists and Baptists of my childhood. Stan,
Well said; but I would like to modify your last line a little.
Science is the loser. And that has hurt us all.

When the United Nations (a political organization) sponsored scientific research that justified a political position (more central control) the separation between science and politics was blurred.

When carbon control became a liberal vs. conservative issue the science was indistinguishable from politics.

Last week the countries best known climate scientist called for civil disobedience to advance a political cause. Only the politics remain.

What passes for dialog today between the proponents of AGW and the skeptics reminds me of the arguments between Methodists and Baptists of my childhood.

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By: stan http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5007&cpage=1#comment-12546 stan Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:43:32 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5007#comment-12546 CJR has this on the George Will column and Rivkin's Algore comparison. http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/the_george_will_affair.php Jaw-dropping stuff. The reactions from the left in the last week have been extraordinary in their fury and their vitriol. Bizarre that a political opinion column should provoke such anger and denunciation. And given all the whoppers Gore told in his movie (see UK findings), the assertion that he is a fount of truth compared to Will just amazes. A lot of folks seem to have completely lost their minds. Whatever happened to some logic and perspective? Whatever happened to a focus on facts, an acknowledgment of our uncertainty and a respect for opposing views? The screaming and shrill demands for censorship that poured into the Post and the Times ought to frighten every scientist (and every citizen for that matter) right down to the very core of their being. This is chilling stuff. The claim that this isn't a demand for censorship is Orwellian. Humpty Dumpty would be proud. ("When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.") Unless a responsible adult or two emerges from the left to provide sensible counsel and encourage respect and tolerance for debate on climate issues, this is going to end badly for everyone. Science will likely be the biggest loser. Of course, this type demonization is part of a wider problem with politics today where opponents are not just "wrong", but slandered and vilified as evil. See e.g. the shouting down of conservative speakers on campus or the Obama campaign's efforts to rally supporters to muscle critics off talk radio programs. Science, however (and hopefully that includes climate science), has the potential to avoid being immersed in the worst of this dung fight. In science, facts still matter (or should). "Fake but accurate" should never be tolerated by scientists, regardless of their political leaning. Those who employ slander and character assassination should be rebuked (see e.g. Mann's response to Solomon). Scientists have a special duty to police falsehoods and exaggerations from their own side. Politics is about power. Science should be about an honest search for truth. Unless scientists make a special effort to police those in their ranks who seek to overwhelm the science with politics, they will all get tarred as political tools. Science will be the loser. And that will hurt us all. CJR has this on the George Will column and Rivkin’s Algore comparison. http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/the_george_will_affair.php
Jaw-dropping stuff.

The reactions from the left in the last week have been extraordinary in their fury and their vitriol. Bizarre that a political opinion column should provoke such anger and denunciation. And given all the whoppers Gore told in his movie (see UK findings), the assertion that he is a fount of truth compared to Will just amazes. A lot of folks seem to have completely lost their minds.

Whatever happened to some logic and perspective? Whatever happened to a focus on facts, an acknowledgment of our uncertainty and a respect for opposing views?

The screaming and shrill demands for censorship that poured into the Post and the Times ought to frighten every scientist (and every citizen for that matter) right down to the very core of their being. This is chilling stuff. The claim that this isn’t a demand for censorship is Orwellian. Humpty Dumpty would be proud. (“When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.”)

Unless a responsible adult or two emerges from the left to provide sensible counsel and encourage respect and tolerance for debate on climate issues, this is going to end badly for everyone. Science will likely be the biggest loser.

Of course, this type demonization is part of a wider problem with politics today where opponents are not just “wrong”, but slandered and vilified as evil. See e.g. the shouting down of conservative speakers on campus or the Obama campaign’s efforts to rally supporters to muscle critics off talk radio programs.

Science, however (and hopefully that includes climate science), has the potential to avoid being immersed in the worst of this dung fight. In science, facts still matter (or should). “Fake but accurate” should never be tolerated by scientists, regardless of their political leaning. Those who employ slander and character assassination should be rebuked (see e.g. Mann’s response to Solomon). Scientists have a special duty to police falsehoods and exaggerations from their own side.

Politics is about power. Science should be about an honest search for truth. Unless scientists make a special effort to police those in their ranks who seek to overwhelm the science with politics, they will all get tarred as political tools.

Science will be the loser. And that will hurt us all.

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