Comments on: Please Stop Giving Chris Mooney Low-Hanging Fruit http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Climate Progress » Blog Archive » Eruptions of know-nothingism from conservative savior Bobby Jindal http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004&cpage=1#comment-13221 Climate Progress » Blog Archive » Eruptions of know-nothingism from conservative savior Bobby Jindal Sat, 04 Apr 2009 01:39:11 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004#comment-13221 [...] recently asked the conservatives to stop giving me low hanging fruit. It’s true: I’ve been gorged. The attacks on science have been so numerous, so [...] [...] recently asked the conservatives to stop giving me low hanging fruit. It’s true: I’ve been gorged. The attacks on science have been so numerous, so [...]

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By: Jim G http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004&cpage=1#comment-12683 Jim G Wed, 04 Mar 2009 07:06:02 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004#comment-12683 At face value, the earmark for a tatoo removal "machine" sounds dumb. But the idea behind it is to help ex-gang member re-integrate into society. The machine is for the Los Angeles area which is notorious for gang problems. As one who lives in this area, I think it is a good idea. However, does that mean the taxpayers from Ohio should help pay for it? That is where I disagree with a federal earmark. This burden is for Los Angelinos to fix. If we choose to spend our tax dollars in other areas, that is our choice. A parapharase of a quote I recently heard: We aren't truly free until we can be comfortable with allowing people to bear the consequences of their own bad decisions. And not feel that it is our obligation to fix it for them. At face value, the earmark for a tatoo removal “machine” sounds dumb. But the idea behind it is to help ex-gang member re-integrate into society. The machine is for the Los Angeles area which is notorious for gang problems. As one who lives in this area, I think it is a good idea.

However, does that mean the taxpayers from Ohio should help pay for it?
That is where I disagree with a federal earmark. This burden is for Los Angelinos to fix. If we choose to spend our tax dollars in other areas, that is our choice.

A parapharase of a quote I recently heard:
We aren’t truly free until we can be comfortable with allowing people to bear the consequences of their own bad decisions. And not feel that it is our obligation to fix it for them.

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By: David Bruggeman http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004&cpage=1#comment-12563 David Bruggeman Sun, 01 Mar 2009 21:44:44 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004#comment-12563 You bring up a great point, that some activities with worthwhile goals don't survive competitive review (and while I'd welcome a different kind of review to decide these things, I don't see it happening in our current system). There should be the opportunity to bring such items, and why they are needed, to light. Current soundbite analysis of earmarks doesn't lend itself to that. You bring up a great point, that some activities with worthwhile goals don’t survive competitive review (and while I’d welcome a different kind of review to decide these things, I don’t see it happening in our current system). There should be the opportunity to bring such items, and why they are needed, to light. Current soundbite analysis of earmarks doesn’t lend itself to that.

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By: docpine http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004&cpage=1#comment-12562 docpine Sun, 01 Mar 2009 20:49:18 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004#comment-12562 It's interesting that you should mention competitive review. My experience has been that that means scientists deciding (within a category)both what is important to study, and how it should be studied. Sometimes an earmark can be that some people think a problem is important to them, but it might not rate out in a panel based on who composes the panel and their views of what is important, plus how good the particular proposal is technically at studying the topic. My experience has been that there is "good pork" and "bad pork" and to some extent "pork is in the eyes of the beholder." This is true regardless of whether it is science or infrastructure or any other porky object. It’s interesting that you should mention competitive review. My experience has been that that means scientists deciding (within a category)both what is important to study, and how it should be studied.

Sometimes an earmark can be that some people think a problem is important to them, but it might not rate out in a panel based on who composes the panel and their views of what is important, plus how good the particular proposal is technically at studying the topic.

My experience has been that there is “good pork” and “bad pork” and to some extent “pork is in the eyes of the beholder.” This is true regardless of whether it is science or infrastructure or any other porky object.

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By: David Bruggeman http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004&cpage=1#comment-12561 David Bruggeman Sun, 01 Mar 2009 19:30:31 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004#comment-12561 Clearly I've been ineffective on this all the way around. Short term - the political points made by the manner of criticism are hiding the legitimate policy debate. My observation is that the criticism about these earmarks is framed badly. The frame is "Isn't this item stupid? Let's cut it." When targeted against science line items, this frame makes the critic appear anti-science. With this frame coming out from mostly Republican mouths of late, it gives ammo to those wishing to perpetuate the war on science rhetoric. The framing of earmark criticism should be along the lines of "Why is this here?" "Why couldn't this be awarded through competitive review?" That frame can be applied to individual items, and depending on the presence (or absence) of a pattern to the earmarks, could be used to criticize earmarks in general. Clearly I’ve been ineffective on this all the way around. Short term – the political points made by the manner of criticism are hiding the legitimate policy debate.

My observation is that the criticism about these earmarks is framed badly. The frame is “Isn’t this item stupid? Let’s cut it.” When targeted against science line items, this frame makes the critic appear anti-science. With this frame coming out from mostly Republican mouths of late, it gives ammo to those wishing to perpetuate the war on science rhetoric.

The framing of earmark criticism should be along the lines of “Why is this here?” “Why couldn’t this be awarded through competitive review?” That frame can be applied to individual items, and depending on the presence (or absence) of a pattern to the earmarks, could be used to criticize earmarks in general.

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By: docpine http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004&cpage=1#comment-12560 docpine Sun, 01 Mar 2009 19:00:07 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004#comment-12560 So David, are you saying that an argument against earmarks should not involve questioning the broader utility of utility of individual earmarks? Or are you saying you should only question them if they are not earmarks of research funds? Or are you saying that people should question earmarks of research funds but not if you're a Republican, because that feeds into the "war on science" rhetoric? So David, are you saying that an argument against earmarks should not involve questioning the broader utility of utility of individual earmarks? Or are you saying you should only question them if they are not earmarks of research funds? Or are you saying that people should question earmarks of research funds but not if you’re a Republican, because that feeds into the “war on science” rhetoric?

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By: David Bruggeman http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004&cpage=1#comment-12552 David Bruggeman Sat, 28 Feb 2009 20:51:06 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004#comment-12552 If the criticism I mentioned actually included the point made by Sparkey and others - that not everything good can be funded - then I would agree. But it doesn't. It's always framed in the sense of 'doesn't this sound silly, let's cut it'. It may make good 'populist' points, but it's not substantive criticism. They don't ask the question whether or not something is valuable, they assume it is wasteful. I maintain that a more useful earmarking criticism would be to confront the process rather than individual earmarks. The criticism of science earmarks also makes it too easy to paint the criticizers as anti-science. That particular tactic I find counterproductive, and was the motivation behind the title of the post. If the criticism I mentioned actually included the point made by Sparkey and others – that not everything good can be funded – then I would agree. But it doesn’t. It’s always framed in the sense of ‘doesn’t this sound silly, let’s cut it’. It may make good ‘populist’ points, but it’s not substantive criticism. They don’t ask the question whether or not something is valuable, they assume it is wasteful.

I maintain that a more useful earmarking criticism would be to confront the process rather than individual earmarks. The criticism of science earmarks also makes it too easy to paint the criticizers as anti-science. That particular tactic I find counterproductive, and was the motivation behind the title of the post.

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By: Sparkey http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004&cpage=1#comment-12549 Sparkey Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:48:11 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004#comment-12549 Some one, some where can justify each and every bit of spending, even in that travesty the president call a "stimulus package.". From volcano monitoring to bear DNA they are all are good programs. But do they all deserve to be funded? The fact is we should have a limited budget, therefore spending should be prioritized. Is all science spending justified in the long grand scheme of things? I think not. And that is what Proxmire, Jundal, et al are pointing out, not all good things should be funded. And this, David, is where your analysis falls short. Prioritizing is not not anti-science, it's fiscal restraint. Unfortunately, there's not enough restraint in either party. Some one, some where can justify each and every bit of spending, even in that travesty the president call a “stimulus package.”. From volcano monitoring to bear DNA they are all are good programs. But do they all deserve to be funded?

The fact is we should have a limited budget, therefore spending should be prioritized. Is all science spending justified in the long grand scheme of things? I think not. And that is what Proxmire, Jundal, et al are pointing out, not all good things should be funded. And this, David, is where your analysis falls short.

Prioritizing is not not anti-science, it’s fiscal restraint.

Unfortunately, there’s not enough restraint in either party.

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By: Maurice Garoutte http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004&cpage=1#comment-12545 Maurice Garoutte Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:42:29 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004#comment-12545 Back in the fifties when I became aware of science and politics, politicians were considered low life bums who could not be trusted. Scientists were thought of as pure seekers of truth whose word carried weight. This week the largest tax increase in history has been proposed based on the word of scientists working in a political organization. The science used to justify a tax on carbon has yet to be independently validated. Also this week the most publicized climate scientist in the country has called for civil disobedience to advance a political cause. If we want people to be more supportive of science, we first need to restore the credibility of scientists. Well at least politicians are still a bunch of bums. Back in the fifties when I became aware of science and politics, politicians were considered low life bums who could not be trusted. Scientists were thought of as pure seekers of truth whose word carried weight.

This week the largest tax increase in history has been proposed based on the word of scientists working in a political organization. The science used to justify a tax on carbon has yet to be independently validated. Also this week the most publicized climate scientist in the country has called for civil disobedience to advance a political cause.

If we want people to be more supportive of science, we first need to restore the credibility of scientists.

Well at least politicians are still a bunch of bums.

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By: jae http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004&cpage=1#comment-12544 jae Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:35:30 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5004#comment-12544 "Perhaps the politician best know for such grandstanding is the man behind the Golden Fleece Awards (1975-1988) - Senator William Proxmire of Wisconsin. And he was a Democrat." It just depends upon who is in power. I agree with Jim Clarke about the fiddling by our "leaders," while the Nation goes up in smoke. “Perhaps the politician best know for such grandstanding is the man behind the Golden Fleece Awards (1975-1988) – Senator William Proxmire of Wisconsin. And he was a Democrat.”

It just depends upon who is in power.

I agree with Jim Clarke about the fiddling by our “leaders,” while the Nation goes up in smoke.

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