Comments on: Temperature Trends 1990-2007: Hansen, IPCC, Obs http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4321 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Philips http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4321&cpage=1#comment-9381 Philips Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:17:26 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4321#comment-9381 Hansen, the IPCC and observational temperature data are being compared and analyzed here through a well read bar chart showing a linear trend in global temperature. Even a layman can gather some idea from this chart. http://www.beautyfinder.co.uk/beauty--mobile-therapists-7-151-subcategory.html Hansen, the IPCC and observational temperature data are being compared and analyzed here through a well read bar chart showing a linear trend in global temperature. Even a layman can gather some idea from this chart.

http://www.beautyfinder.co.uk/beauty–mobile-therapists-7-151-subcategory.html

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By: Harry Haymuss http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4321&cpage=1#comment-9380 Harry Haymuss Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:02:02 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4321#comment-9380 *If* global temperature would be a good way to track "global warming" the only accurate way to do it would be without any subjective corrections for, e.g., UHI. That means MSU. Period. *If* global temperature would be a good way to track “global warming” the only accurate way to do it would be without any subjective corrections for, e.g., UHI.

That means MSU. Period.

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By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4321&cpage=1#comment-9379 Roger Pielke, Jr. Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:32:44 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4321#comment-9379 A comment sent in by email from Roger Cohen: "I think your focus on identifying metrics to track "projections" by the IPCC and others involved in the climate change business is a very worthwhile effort. Every significant business enterprise does this in one way or another. And since there is so much at stake here, it seems reasonable to insist on some kind of quantitative accountability for the computer-based projections from which policy recommendations have emerged. However, I suspect that unless the effort generates a sustained focus such as suggested below, it is not likely to overcome resistance to the concept. I believe the number one metric remains global average temperature change, flawed and incomplete that may be. As you point out, even that simple metric is subject to issues around the choice of a data set. For example, it is possible to do some statistics on the differences between the various data sets over a particular interval. If one compares the GISS data set for 2001-2007 with the UKMET (HadCRUT3) data set, one finds that the difference between the regression slopes over this period is 1.16 standard deviations, implying that there is a 97% chance that the UKMET set is giving a systematically lower trend than GISS over the past seven years. A similar analysis using the NCDC data set gives an 86% chance that it is giving a lower systematic trend than GISS. This finding, combined with the problems revealed last year in the treatment of U.S. data and the less-than-arm's-length relationship between Jim Hansen and data set preparation, reduces confidence in using the GISS data set in future metric analyses. And as you point out, the satellite-based observations are different yet. Naturally over the longer term, these differences will likely become unimportant, but we are talking here about assessing the reliability of IPCC projections over intermediate time frames. To establish a basis for agreement on how to deal with global average temperature and other metrics, it may be worthwhile to convene a workshop of parties from various disciplines who have a serious and sincere interest in arriving at an empirical way of assessing the technical merit of IPCC projections. A successful outcome of such a workshop and any follow up activities would be an agreement on key measurements and data analyses which would be followed for an indefinite period of time. An annual report of the state of the analyses could be published in a widely-read climate research journal or in an independent vehicle. Though universal support is not realistic, such a step could garner support from advocates and skeptics alike and head off much future cherry-picking by one side or another. Because the IPCC's impartiality has been questioned in some quarters, the process of monitoring its own projections should not be left entirely to that organization. I believe that your (and that of Professor Pielke senior) role in keeping the system honest, while not denying human impact on climate, positions you to take the lead in such a project. Roger W. Cohen Durango, CO" A comment sent in by email from Roger Cohen:

“I think your focus on identifying metrics to track “projections” by the
IPCC and others involved in the climate change business is a very
worthwhile effort. Every significant business enterprise does this in
one way or another. And since there is so much at stake here, it seems
reasonable to insist on some kind of quantitative accountability for the
computer-based projections from which policy recommendations have
emerged. However, I suspect that unless the effort generates a
sustained focus such as suggested below, it is not likely to overcome
resistance to the concept.

I believe the number one metric remains global average temperature
change, flawed and incomplete that may be. As you point out, even that
simple metric is subject to issues around the choice of a data set. For
example, it is possible to do some statistics on the differences between
the various data sets over a particular interval. If one compares the
GISS data set for 2001-2007 with the UKMET (HadCRUT3) data set, one
finds that the difference between the regression slopes over this period
is 1.16 standard deviations, implying that there is a 97% chance that
the UKMET set is giving a systematically lower trend than GISS over the
past seven years. A similar analysis using the NCDC data set gives an
86% chance that it is giving a lower systematic trend than GISS. This
finding, combined with the problems revealed last year in the treatment
of U.S. data and the less-than-arm’s-length relationship between Jim
Hansen and data set preparation, reduces confidence in using the GISS
data set in future metric analyses. And as you point out, the
satellite-based observations are different yet. Naturally over the
longer term, these differences will likely become unimportant, but we
are talking here about assessing the reliability of IPCC projections
over intermediate time frames.

To establish a basis for agreement on how to deal with global average
temperature and other metrics, it may be worthwhile to convene a
workshop of parties from various disciplines who have a serious and
sincere interest in arriving at an empirical way of assessing the
technical merit of IPCC projections. A successful outcome of such a
workshop and any follow up activities would be an agreement on key
measurements and data analyses which would be followed for an indefinite
period of time. An annual report of the state of the analyses could be
published in a widely-read climate research journal or in an independent
vehicle. Though universal support is not realistic, such a step could
garner support from advocates and skeptics alike and head off much
future cherry-picking by one side or another. Because the IPCC’s
impartiality has been questioned in some quarters, the process of
monitoring its own projections should not be left entirely to that
organization. I believe that your (and that of Professor Pielke senior)
role in keeping the system honest, while not denying human impact on
climate, positions you to take the lead in such a project.

Roger W. Cohen
Durango, CO”

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By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4321&cpage=1#comment-9378 Roger Pielke, Jr. Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:51:38 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4321#comment-9378 Mark- Correct. Mark- Correct.

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By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4321&cpage=1#comment-9377 Mark Bahner Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:56:27 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4321#comment-9377 Hi Roger, Just for clarity, can you repeat what the scenarios are for the IPCC values for 1990, 1995, 2001, and 2007? The scenario for 2001 and 2007 is A1F1, right? Hi Roger,

Just for clarity, can you repeat what the scenarios are for the IPCC values for 1990, 1995, 2001, and 2007?

The scenario for 2001 and 2007 is A1F1, right?

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By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4321&cpage=1#comment-9376 Roger Pielke, Jr. Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:45:13 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4321#comment-9376 Lucia- Thanks (and congrats for getting a comment through;-) I showed Met Stations, Land/Ocean trend is 0.22. Lucia- Thanks (and congrats for getting a comment through;-) I showed Met Stations, Land/Ocean trend is 0.22.

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By: lucia http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4321&cpage=1#comment-9375 lucia Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:58:07 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4321#comment-9375 Is that GISS Met Station Data? Or Land Ocean? I've pretty much convinced myself that the principle of comparing like to like requires us to compare computations to Land-Ocean data whenever possible. The reason I think this is: 1)the GCMs compute surface temperatures including areas over both the land and the ocean. 2) We understand why surface temperatures are likely to vary more quickly than ocean values based on phenomenology. So, in periods of warming, measurements over land will rise faster (and this is even without considering any heat island effects.) Of course, as a practical matter, if we distrust the measurements over the oceans, I'd go with the land based only measurements. Is that GISS Met Station Data? Or Land Ocean?

I’ve pretty much convinced myself that the principle of comparing like to like requires us to compare computations to Land-Ocean data whenever possible. The reason I think this is:

1)the GCMs compute surface temperatures including areas over both the land and the ocean.
2) We understand why surface temperatures are likely to vary more quickly than ocean values based on phenomenology.

So, in periods of warming, measurements over land will rise faster (and this is even without considering any heat island effects.)

Of course, as a practical matter, if we distrust the measurements over the oceans, I’d go with the land based only measurements.

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By: lucia http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4321&cpage=1#comment-9374 lucia Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:49:13 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4321#comment-9374 testing..... testing…..

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