Comments on: The Simplest Solution to Eliminating U.S. Greenhouse Gas Emissions http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4013 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4013&cpage=1#comment-7020 Roger Pielke, Jr. Thu, 07 Dec 2006 02:51:18 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4013#comment-7020 Tom- Thanks. Commons problems are "solved" (quotes because they are often not completely solved) by turning them into non-commons problems. Witness the response to ozone depletion (made possible by technological innovation of substitutes, first motivated by no regrets actions), acid rain (privatizing pollution rights), etc. If you insist on defining climate change as a commons problem you will find that there may indeed be no solution beyond muddling through (which may be where we are headed). If it is to be "solved" then someone has to figure out a way that is politically, technologically, and practically feasible to turn the challenge into a non-commons problem. I have no answer to this, but I have suggested getting a start with no-regrets actions. See my congressional testimony from last summer for this argument in more detail. Thanks. Tom- Thanks. Commons problems are “solved” (quotes because they are often not completely solved) by turning them into non-commons problems. Witness the response to ozone depletion (made possible by technological innovation of substitutes, first motivated by no regrets actions), acid rain (privatizing pollution rights), etc. If you insist on defining climate change as a commons problem you will find that there may indeed be no solution beyond muddling through (which may be where we are headed). If it is to be “solved” then someone has to figure out a way that is politically, technologically, and practically feasible to turn the challenge into a non-commons problem. I have no answer to this, but I have suggested getting a start with no-regrets actions. See my congressional testimony from last summer for this argument in more detail.

Thanks.

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By: TokyoTom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4013&cpage=1#comment-7019 TokyoTom Thu, 07 Dec 2006 02:24:54 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4013#comment-7019 Mark, you are essentially suggesting that if we wait, technology will enable us to cure the commons problem more cheaply than we can now. You might be correct, but the problem remains that without establishing incentives now, it remains unlikely that anyone will invest in developing the desired technology. Are you suggesting government programs? Most economists would suggest that we start quite modestly, and ramp up or mitigation efforts as our wealth increases and technology costs fall, rather than simply continuing to twiddle our thumbs. Mark, you are essentially suggesting that if we wait, technology will enable us to cure the commons problem more cheaply than we can now. You might be correct, but the problem remains that without establishing incentives now, it remains unlikely that anyone will invest in developing the desired technology. Are you suggesting government programs?

Most economists would suggest that we start quite modestly, and ramp up or mitigation efforts as our wealth increases and technology costs fall, rather than simply continuing to twiddle our thumbs.

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By: TokyoTom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4013&cpage=1#comment-7018 TokyoTom Thu, 07 Dec 2006 02:20:03 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4013#comment-7018 Roger - The global atmosphere is a classic open-access resource, so analysis of climate change as a commons problem is one of the single most effective analytical tools we have. Technological advance increases pressure on the reource, in turn creating pressures to find ways to manage the problem. But because of the open-access nature of the resource, absent new technologies (such as barbed wire) that make it easy to privatize the commons, reaching effective agreement is subject to problems of coordination (rules and free-riding) and enforcement (cheating). And social pressure is a frequently occuring aspect of the solutions communities devise to managing common resources. Solutions may lie both in building mutual confidence and trust to overcome prisoners' dilemma issues, finding appropriate tools to persuade recalcitrant parties, and new technologies/institutions that may privatize the commons. As I have also pointed out Public Choice analysis about how decision-making within individual countries is subject to rent-seeking and rent-capture problems, and by the short horizons of decision-makers, is also quite helpful in understanding policy blockages and ways that policy is susceptible to manaipulation. I am afraid I don't understand why you would suggest that we abandon a commons analysis. Are you making a tactical point? Roger -

The global atmosphere is a classic open-access resource, so analysis of climate change as a commons problem is one of the single most effective analytical tools we have.

Technological advance increases pressure on the reource, in turn creating pressures to find ways to manage the problem. But because of the open-access nature of the resource, absent new technologies (such as barbed wire) that make it easy to privatize the commons, reaching effective agreement is subject to problems of coordination (rules and free-riding) and enforcement (cheating). And social pressure is a frequently occuring aspect of the solutions communities devise to managing common resources. Solutions may lie both in building mutual confidence and trust to overcome prisoners’ dilemma issues, finding appropriate tools to persuade recalcitrant parties, and new technologies/institutions that may privatize the commons.

As I have also pointed out Public Choice analysis about how decision-making within individual countries is subject to rent-seeking and rent-capture problems, and by the short horizons of decision-makers, is also quite helpful in understanding policy blockages and ways that policy is susceptible to manaipulation.

I am afraid I don’t understand why you would suggest that we abandon a commons analysis. Are you making a tactical point?

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By: Lab Lemming http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4013&cpage=1#comment-7017 Lab Lemming Wed, 06 Dec 2006 23:48:06 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4013#comment-7017 Roger: Simple thermodynamics requires that atmosphere capture always be more expensive than point source capture- you need to do work on a mixture to unmix it, and work requires energy, which costs money. So at least for fixed-location industrial sites like coal plants and cement factories, the sequestration costs for them will be lower the minimum cost for atmospheric capture. And the costs for sequestration are dodgy if you look closely. For example, a recent PESA (petroleum exploration society of Australia) article reported that University of Queensland had reduced the CO2 sequestration cost by half, to $25/ton CO2. That sounds like a technological breakthrough, but careful reading showed that the reduction in cost was purely economic. The CO2 was being sequestered in coal beds, so the sequestration process displaced methane, which was captured and sold. The increase in sequestration cost was entirely due to the increased market value of the methane over the course of the study period- the actual process remained unchanged. So if you are looking for the cost of carbon removal and sequestration, you really need to look at the nitty gritty details of how it works and what variables effect the cost. Roger:
Simple thermodynamics requires that atmosphere capture always be more expensive than point source capture- you need to do work on a mixture to unmix it, and work requires energy, which costs money. So at least for fixed-location industrial sites like coal plants and cement factories, the sequestration costs for them will be lower the minimum cost for atmospheric capture.

And the costs for sequestration are dodgy if you look closely. For example, a recent PESA (petroleum exploration society of Australia) article reported that University of Queensland had reduced the CO2 sequestration cost by half, to $25/ton CO2. That sounds like a technological breakthrough, but careful reading showed that the reduction in cost was purely economic. The CO2 was being sequestered in coal beds, so the sequestration process displaced methane, which was captured and sold. The increase in sequestration cost was entirely due to the increased market value of the methane over the course of the study period- the actual process remained unchanged. So if you are looking for the cost of carbon removal and sequestration, you really need to look at the nitty gritty details of how it works and what variables effect the cost.

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By: Scott Saleska http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4013&cpage=1#comment-7016 Scott Saleska Wed, 06 Dec 2006 19:35:36 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4013#comment-7016 I think, Roger, you must be pulling our legs when you call this the "simplest solution", especially the claim that it entails "no government regulation, no change in behavior, no international negotiations, and, most importantly from the standpoint of political action, no changes in energy production or use. Politically, it is therefore as simple and straightforward an approach as can be imagined." But that leg-pulling joke aside, here's an interesting thought experiment for the policy/politics/ethics folks: Let's say air capture, or any of the many geoengineering options being widely discussed (e.g. my colleague here at the UofA, Roger Angel's recent idea* to block 1.8% of the incoming energy with a gadget at the L1 Lagrange orbital point), ends up being feasible in a few decades. And let’s say we actually reach the point where we can, as Roger [Pielke, not Angel] suggested, tune the atmosphere’s CO2. [ * Roger Angel, 2006. Feasibility of cooling the Earth with a cloud of small spacecraft near the inner Lagrange point (L1), PNAS: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/103/46/17184 (subscription require). Or see the free podcast of his recent talk at our Global Climate Change series at University of Arizona, in which he reviewed a whole range of options from solar cells to Paul Crutzen’s aerosols, to his satellites: http://podcasting.arizona.edu/globalclimatechange.html (or any of the others who spoke, focusing mostly on science of climate change] What level do we tune it to? And who gets to decide that level? The “worst off” individual (to follow Rawls famous “Theory of Justice”)? Then we probably let the Maldivians decide, since under current projections, sea level rise could completely wipe them off the map. Places like Russia, on the other hand, would probably prefer to have some moderate global warming, because that probably would give them better agriculture in Siberia, and ice-free ports on the north atlantic. Best, Scott I think, Roger, you must be pulling our legs when you call this the “simplest solution”, especially the claim that it entails “no government regulation, no change in behavior, no international negotiations, and, most importantly from the standpoint of political action, no changes in energy production or use. Politically, it is therefore as simple and straightforward an approach as can be imagined.”

But that leg-pulling joke aside, here’s an interesting thought experiment for the policy/politics/ethics folks:

Let’s say air capture, or any of the many geoengineering options being widely discussed (e.g. my colleague here at the UofA, Roger Angel’s recent idea* to block 1.8% of the incoming energy with a gadget at the L1 Lagrange orbital point), ends up being feasible in a few decades. And let’s say we actually reach the point where we can, as Roger [Pielke, not Angel] suggested, tune the atmosphere’s CO2.

[ * Roger Angel, 2006. Feasibility of cooling the Earth with a cloud of small
spacecraft near the inner Lagrange point (L1), PNAS: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/103/46/17184 (subscription require). Or see the free podcast of his recent talk at our Global Climate Change series at University of Arizona, in which he reviewed a whole range of options from solar cells to Paul Crutzen’s aerosols, to his satellites: http://podcasting.arizona.edu/globalclimatechange.html (or any of the others who spoke, focusing mostly on science of climate change]

What level do we tune it to? And who gets to decide that level? The “worst off” individual (to follow Rawls famous “Theory of Justice”)? Then we probably let the Maldivians decide, since under current projections, sea level rise could completely wipe them off the map. Places like Russia, on the other hand, would probably prefer to have some moderate global warming, because that probably would give them better agriculture in Siberia, and ice-free ports on the north atlantic.

Best,
Scott

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By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4013&cpage=1#comment-7015 Mark Bahner Wed, 06 Dec 2006 16:48:45 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4013#comment-7015 "Roger, as I noted above, the tragedy of the commons problem affects all potential solutions. No economic actors have incentives to invest in such technologies or to actually pay to use them, as there are no returns for them to capture, and nations are likely to embark on requiring that such technologies be used only if other countries share the costs. Free riders may prevent any action whatsoever." Actually, if world economic growth behaves as I expect in the 21st century, free riders won't prevent any action (at least at the end of the century). Let's asssume the IPCC is approximately correct, and the CO2 concentration in 2100 is approximately 680 ppm. (I think that's at least 100 ppm too high, but let's forget that for the time being.) If the concentration is 680 ppm in 2100, that's ~300 ppm above the current concentration, and ~400 ppm above the pre-industrial concentration of 280 ppm. Using a cost/ton of ambient CO2 scrubbing of approximately $250 ton of carbon, and approximately 2 billion tons of carbon per ppm of atmospheric CO2, that means it costs about $500 billion (or $0.5 trillion) to remove 1 ppm CO2 from the atmosphere. Therefore, it would cost $150 trillion to get down from 680 ppm to the present 380 ppm, or $200 trillion to get down from 680 ppm to the pre-industrial value of 280 ppm. If economic growth in the 21st century behaves as I expect, the world per-capita GDP in 2100 will be approximately $10 million. Using a population equal to the current population of 6 billion, the world GDP in 2100 will be 60 QUADRILLION dollars. The projected costs of $150 to $200 trillion would therefore be 0.25 to 0.33 percent of world GDP in 2100. That's equivalent to about $125 billion, when compared to today's world GDP of $50 trillion. In other words, that's approximately what rich countries give to developing countries every year in foreign aid. “Roger, as I noted above, the tragedy of the commons problem affects all potential solutions.

No economic actors have incentives to invest in such technologies or to actually pay to use them, as there are no returns for them to capture, and nations are likely to embark on requiring that such technologies be used only if other countries share the costs. Free riders may prevent any action whatsoever.”

Actually, if world economic growth behaves as I expect in the 21st century, free riders won’t prevent any action (at least at the end of the century).

Let’s asssume the IPCC is approximately correct, and the CO2 concentration in 2100 is approximately 680 ppm. (I think that’s at least 100 ppm too high, but let’s forget that for the time being.)

If the concentration is 680 ppm in 2100, that’s ~300 ppm above the current concentration, and ~400 ppm above the pre-industrial concentration of 280 ppm.

Using a cost/ton of ambient CO2 scrubbing of approximately $250 ton of carbon, and approximately 2 billion tons of carbon per ppm of atmospheric CO2, that means it costs about $500 billion (or $0.5 trillion) to remove 1 ppm CO2 from the atmosphere.

Therefore, it would cost $150 trillion to get down from 680 ppm to the present 380 ppm, or $200 trillion to get down from 680 ppm to the pre-industrial value of 280 ppm.

If economic growth in the 21st century behaves as I expect, the world per-capita GDP in 2100 will be approximately $10 million. Using a population equal to the current population of 6 billion, the world GDP in 2100 will be 60 QUADRILLION dollars.

The projected costs of $150 to $200 trillion would therefore be 0.25 to 0.33 percent of world GDP in 2100. That’s equivalent to about $125 billion, when compared to today’s world GDP of $50 trillion. In other words, that’s approximately what rich countries give to developing countries every year in foreign aid.

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By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4013&cpage=1#comment-7014 Roger Pielke, Jr. Wed, 06 Dec 2006 13:56:34 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4013#comment-7014 Tom- Problems are defined by people. Instead of a commons problem climate change might be reframed. See my paper "Misdefining Climate Change." See also: Pielke, Jr., R. A., 1997: Asking the Right Questions: Atmospheric Sciences Research and Societal Needs. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, 78(2), 255-264. http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/resource-145-1997.13.pdf Tom- Problems are defined by people. Instead of a commons problem climate change might be reframed. See my paper “Misdefining Climate Change.” See also:

Pielke, Jr., R. A., 1997: Asking the Right Questions: Atmospheric Sciences Research and Societal Needs. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, 78(2), 255-264.
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/resource-145-1997.13.pdf

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By: TokyoTom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4013&cpage=1#comment-7013 TokyoTom Wed, 06 Dec 2006 13:50:36 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4013#comment-7013 Roger, I disagree. I think frankness about the nature of the problem is the best way to move towards solutions. The political discussion is about how we manage collectively an ope-access commons. We can make a good start on this by starting to analyze related problems and solving the simplest ones first, thus building experience and trust. Say global fisheries, for example? Roger, I disagree. I think frankness about the nature of the problem is the best way to move towards solutions. The political discussion is about how we manage collectively an ope-access commons.

We can make a good start on this by starting to analyze related problems and solving the simplest ones first, thus building experience and trust. Say global fisheries, for example?

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By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4013&cpage=1#comment-7012 Roger Pielke, Jr. Wed, 06 Dec 2006 13:13:12 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4013#comment-7012 Tom- Thanks for your comments. In framing climate change as a commons problem you have painted yourself into a corner. I would encourage you to begin thinking about other perspectives on the problem. Things may be less dismal from a different vantage point. Tom- Thanks for your comments. In framing climate change as a commons problem you have painted yourself into a corner. I would encourage you to begin thinking about other perspectives on the problem. Things may be less dismal from a different vantage point.

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By: TokyoTom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4013&cpage=1#comment-7011 TokyoTom Wed, 06 Dec 2006 09:04:42 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4013#comment-7011 Roger, as I noted above, the tragedy of the commons problem affects all potential solutions. No economic actors have incentives to invest in such technologies or to actually pay to use them, as there are no returns for them to capture, and nations are likely to embark on requiring that such technologies be used only if other countries share the costs. Free riders may prevent any action whatsoever. The same is true with investments in adaptation/development in the third world. The Stern report and writings by Nordhaus and other economists make the same points. Roger, as I noted above, the tragedy of the commons problem affects all potential solutions.

No economic actors have incentives to invest in such technologies or to actually pay to use them, as there are no returns for them to capture, and nations are likely to embark on requiring that such technologies be used only if other countries share the costs. Free riders may prevent any action whatsoever.

The same is true with investments in adaptation/development in the third world. The Stern report and writings by Nordhaus and other economists make the same points.

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