Comments on: Krugman Says Get on the Bus http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Pushback on Waxman-Markey – now is the time for all good citizens to come to the aid of their country « Watts Up With That? http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223&cpage=1#comment-14162 Pushback on Waxman-Markey – now is the time for all good citizens to come to the aid of their country « Watts Up With That? Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:28:02 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223#comment-14162 [...] who would have the gall to espouse views that he only recently held. Such relativism smacks of kowtowing to political expediency while ignoring policy outcomes or even something even more sinister, maybe even involving the . . . [...] [...] who would have the gall to espouse views that he only recently held. Such relativism smacks of kowtowing to political expediency while ignoring policy outcomes or even something even more sinister, maybe even involving the . . . [...]

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By: Left Pushback on Waxman-Markey: Is It Time to Start Over? — MasterResource http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223&cpage=1#comment-14160 Left Pushback on Waxman-Markey: Is It Time to Start Over? — MasterResource Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:39:59 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223#comment-14160 [...] who would have the gall to espouse views that he only recently held. Such relativism smacks of kowtowing to political expediency while ignoring policy outcomes or even something even more sinister, maybe even involving the . . . [...] [...] who would have the gall to espouse views that he only recently held. Such relativism smacks of kowtowing to political expediency while ignoring policy outcomes or even something even more sinister, maybe even involving the . . . [...]

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By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223&cpage=1#comment-13930 Roger Pielke, Jr. Wed, 20 May 2009 14:37:06 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223#comment-13930 -7-Jonathan All analogies are imperfect, you are correct. The point here is of course not anything general about climate policy, or even specific to climate policy, only to highlight the flawed reasoning that in a debate over action the option before us should be taken simply because it is the only option before us. If the option before us is unsatisfactory, well, get more options. -7-Jonathan

All analogies are imperfect, you are correct.

The point here is of course not anything general about climate policy, or even specific to climate policy, only to highlight the flawed reasoning that in a debate over action the option before us should be taken simply because it is the only option before us.

If the option before us is unsatisfactory, well, get more options.

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By: Jonathan Gilligan http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223&cpage=1#comment-13929 Jonathan Gilligan Wed, 20 May 2009 14:14:33 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223#comment-13929 This is a terrible metaphor because: 1) There is no significant down side to delaying crossing the canyon. There are serious consequences to delaying emissions mitigation, although there is considerable uncertainty just how severe they are. 2) Once the bus leaves the ramp, there's no opportunity for mid-course corrections or turning back. Emissions mitigation offers both options. Fundamentally you must recognize the difference between saying "the canyon won't wait" and Krugman's "the planet won't wait." This is a terrible metaphor because:
1) There is no significant down side to delaying crossing the canyon. There are serious consequences to delaying emissions mitigation, although there is considerable uncertainty just how severe they are.
2) Once the bus leaves the ramp, there’s no opportunity for mid-course corrections or turning back. Emissions mitigation offers both options.

Fundamentally you must recognize the difference between saying “the canyon won’t wait” and Krugman’s “the planet won’t wait.”

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By: jae http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223&cpage=1#comment-13925 jae Wed, 20 May 2009 02:32:18 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223#comment-13925 Right on, Stan! THe unbelievably widespread corruption associated with climate science is absolutely the most shocking thing I have ever seen. If I had not witnessed it first hand over the past 3 years (mainly at ClimateAudit), I probably could not believe it. And I'm a veteran of wars with environmental-extremists and their horrendous abuse of "science." I have no doubt that if it were not for the ailing economy, the extremists would again prevail with their nonsense science and PR scare tactics. Maybe we have a slight chance for their defeat this time, now that the actions they want to take will smack the average citizen directly in his pocketbook in short order. Let's hope that they have finally over-reached and pushed the envelope too far. It is truly ironic that if they do succeed, it will likely be their end, also. Right on, Stan! THe unbelievably widespread corruption associated with climate science is absolutely the most shocking thing I have ever seen. If I had not witnessed it first hand over the past 3 years (mainly at ClimateAudit), I probably could not believe it. And I’m a veteran of wars with environmental-extremists and their horrendous abuse of “science.” I have no doubt that if it were not for the ailing economy, the extremists would again prevail with their nonsense science and PR scare tactics. Maybe we have a slight chance for their defeat this time, now that the actions they want to take will smack the average citizen directly in his pocketbook in short order. Let’s hope that they have finally over-reached and pushed the envelope too far. It is truly ironic that if they do succeed, it will likely be their end, also.

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By: stan http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223&cpage=1#comment-13910 stan Tue, 19 May 2009 12:27:34 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223#comment-13910 That stench you smell is science rotting from the inside out. Doesn't it seem a bit strange that we have legions of activists demanding that the entire world endure wrenching change, but we can't be bothered to make the effort to replicate scientific "studies"? Life as we know it must be forever altered, but we can't be bothered to make sure our thermometers are accurate? The data from our flawed thermometers and the announded "findings" from studies which have never completed the basics of the scientific method are driving much of the political drive toward this train wreck. I have a simple proposal. Before scientists advocate for massive social, economic and political change, how about they make the effort to start checking each others work? How about they fix their data bases and the seriously flawed monitoring system? Maybe even add a little quality control to the database management that would bring it up to the standards of the 1980s? Add a little transparency by making their data, code and methodology available for review? I realize this might add a little work for the climate science alarmists, but the billions affected by their advocacy might think it time well spent. That stench you smell is science rotting from the inside out.

Doesn’t it seem a bit strange that we have legions of activists demanding that the entire world endure wrenching change, but we can’t be bothered to make the effort to replicate scientific “studies”? Life as we know it must be forever altered, but we can’t be bothered to make sure our thermometers are accurate?

The data from our flawed thermometers and the announded “findings” from studies which have never completed the basics of the scientific method are driving much of the political drive toward this train wreck.

I have a simple proposal. Before scientists advocate for massive social, economic and political change, how about they make the effort to start checking each others work? How about they fix their data bases and the seriously flawed monitoring system? Maybe even add a little quality control to the database management that would bring it up to the standards of the 1980s? Add a little transparency by making their data, code and methodology available for review?

I realize this might add a little work for the climate science alarmists, but the billions affected by their advocacy might think it time well spent.

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By: michel http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223&cpage=1#comment-13908 michel Tue, 19 May 2009 11:46:40 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223#comment-13908 Peter D is correct. The current approach of AGW advocates is to suppose we can continue a lifestyle unchanged whose main features are industrialized agriculture, suburban living, malls, car transport. All we have to do is a bit of cap and trade, a bit of technology. In fact if we really are serious about reducing carbon emissions to levels which will make a difference, all will have to go. We are talking basically organic agriculture complete with composting, and the end of the auto industry, with all its implications in terms of lifestyle. The movement is not prepared to admit this, or maybe does not know it, and one sees why. It is an end of the lifestyle of the late 20c, and a return to something much more like that of 1920, but computerized. A very very big deal indeed. Peter D is correct. The current approach of AGW advocates is to suppose we can continue a lifestyle unchanged whose main features are industrialized agriculture, suburban living, malls, car transport. All we have to do is a bit of cap and trade, a bit of technology.

In fact if we really are serious about reducing carbon emissions to levels which will make a difference, all will have to go. We are talking basically organic agriculture complete with composting, and the end of the auto industry, with all its implications in terms of lifestyle.

The movement is not prepared to admit this, or maybe does not know it, and one sees why. It is an end of the lifestyle of the late 20c, and a return to something much more like that of 1920, but computerized. A very very big deal indeed.

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By: Jon Frum http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223&cpage=1#comment-13904 Jon Frum Tue, 19 May 2009 02:31:34 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223#comment-13904 This is no different that Kyoto. The idea on the part of insiders is to get a system of regulation - any regulation - in to effect, and then worry about what's really needed later. Of course, the insiders - lobbyists, activists, bureaucrat-fellow-travellers, etc. - know that neither Kyoto nor this bill would actually do anything useful of itself. It's the legally-binding regulations they want. Once they have them, they can always ramp them up later. It's the intitial machine they want in place - they can tune it up later at their leisure, and there will be nothing the rest of us can do about it. Or so they think. When the economy starts tanking again due to energy costs, the people will be ready to put heads on spikes, and Washington will be a good place to find likely heads. This is no different that Kyoto. The idea on the part of insiders is to get a system of regulation – any regulation – in to effect, and then worry about what’s really needed later. Of course, the insiders – lobbyists, activists, bureaucrat-fellow-travellers, etc. – know that neither Kyoto nor this bill would actually do anything useful of itself. It’s the legally-binding regulations they want. Once they have them, they can always ramp them up later. It’s the intitial machine they want in place – they can tune it up later at their leisure, and there will be nothing the rest of us can do about it. Or so they think. When the economy starts tanking again due to energy costs, the people will be ready to put heads on spikes, and Washington will be a good place to find likely heads.

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By: Peter Donovan http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223&cpage=1#comment-13902 Peter Donovan Mon, 18 May 2009 19:27:21 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223#comment-13902 Roger, your Grand Canyon metaphor is good. But the same comment can be made about anyone who assumes that emissions reductions might help stabilize climate in our lifetimes. According to IPCC 4th assessment, 100% reductions (in 2007) may get us 350 ppm by about 2100 or so. Yet the assumption that reductions will have near-term impact is widespread. If the carbon issue is seen as pollution, it is likely insoluble. However, if we add another "problem" to it, we have more chances for both mitigation and adaptation. This is the problem that soils are deficient in organic matter (leading to floods, droughts, food and water insecurity). And various strands of alternative agriculture have figured out how to turn atmospheric carbon into soil organic matter, fairly rapidly. I'm not talking about no-till, though that helps in some places. I'm talking about the kind of biological agriculture that Pollan writes about in Omnivore's Dilemma, where one works with basic biosphere processes rather than against them. It's accumulating around the edges on every continent. It does not fit the technological paradigms of agriculture as an input-output system. The problem with carbon is that it's NOT a problem. It's a cycle, a biological network consisting of autonomous and self-motivated creatures, many of them microscopic. Technology is not good at enhancing such systems. Soils even depleted as they are contain more carbon than the atmosphere and forests combined. A slight increase in soil organic matter has far more leverage on the global carbon cycle than emissions reductions, desirable as they are. However, there are no major ideological or economic or political interests organized in favor of soil organic matter. The possibility remains hidden in part because our technophile policy systems prefer convergent (one size fits all) solutions to divergent ones, silver bullets to silver buckshot to use Steve Rayner's term. It is outside the purview of most of our major institutions. The biochar possibility has gotten more press because it is recognizable to pyromaniacs, technophiles, and diehard materials handlers. The way to open ourselves to biological soil carbon possibilities, which vary quite a bit depending on location and environment, is through widespread monitoring (see the Challenge at soilcarboncoalition.org). Just arguing for it won't do, because as Galbraith noted, the enemy of the conventional wisdom is not ideas, but the march of events. Emissions reductions, well motivated as they may be, by themselves are just a gallant cavalry charge into the barbed wire. We need to add to these, the possibility of turning atmospheric carbon into water-holding, fertility-enhancing soil organic matter, using free solar energy without the need for expensive concentration and collection systems. Even poor people are doing this. In other words, a few people are starting to filter across the canyon, carrying their silver buckshot. And they're not all on the same path, or in vehicles we recognize. Roger, your Grand Canyon metaphor is good. But the same comment can be made about anyone who assumes that emissions reductions might help stabilize climate in our lifetimes. According to IPCC 4th assessment, 100% reductions (in 2007) may get us 350 ppm by about 2100 or so. Yet the assumption that reductions will have near-term impact is widespread.

If the carbon issue is seen as pollution, it is likely insoluble.

However, if we add another “problem” to it, we have more chances for both mitigation and adaptation. This is the problem that soils are deficient in organic matter (leading to floods, droughts, food and water insecurity). And various strands of alternative agriculture have figured out how to turn atmospheric carbon into soil organic matter, fairly rapidly.

I’m not talking about no-till, though that helps in some places. I’m talking about the kind of biological agriculture that Pollan writes about in Omnivore’s Dilemma, where one works with basic biosphere processes rather than against them. It’s accumulating around the edges on every continent. It does not fit the technological paradigms of agriculture as an input-output system.

The problem with carbon is that it’s NOT a problem. It’s a cycle, a biological network consisting of autonomous and self-motivated creatures, many of them microscopic. Technology is not good at enhancing such systems.

Soils even depleted as they are contain more carbon than the atmosphere and forests combined. A slight increase in soil organic matter has far more leverage on the global carbon cycle than emissions reductions, desirable as they are.

However, there are no major ideological or economic or political interests organized in favor of soil organic matter. The possibility remains hidden in part because our technophile policy systems prefer convergent (one size fits all) solutions to divergent ones, silver bullets to silver buckshot to use Steve Rayner’s term. It is outside the purview of most of our major institutions. The biochar possibility has gotten more press because it is recognizable to pyromaniacs, technophiles, and diehard materials handlers.

The way to open ourselves to biological soil carbon possibilities, which vary quite a bit depending on location and environment, is through widespread monitoring (see the Challenge at soilcarboncoalition.org). Just arguing for it won’t do, because as Galbraith noted, the enemy of the conventional wisdom is not ideas, but the march of events.

Emissions reductions, well motivated as they may be, by themselves are just a gallant cavalry charge into the barbed wire. We need to add to these, the possibility of turning atmospheric carbon into water-holding, fertility-enhancing soil organic matter, using free solar energy without the need for expensive concentration and collection systems. Even poor people are doing this.

In other words, a few people are starting to filter across the canyon, carrying their silver buckshot. And they’re not all on the same path, or in vehicles we recognize.

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By: jae http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223&cpage=1#comment-13900 jae Mon, 18 May 2009 16:11:12 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5223#comment-13900 Hmm. Here are more observations/questions about the same Krugman: http://factsnotfantasy.blogspot.com/ Hmm. Here are more observations/questions about the same Krugman:

http://factsnotfantasy.blogspot.com/

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