Comments on: You Just Can’t Say Such Things Redux http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4024 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Jim Clarke http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4024&cpage=1#comment-7224 Jim Clarke Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:52:50 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4024#comment-7224 Lab Lemming, The problem with your argument is that 'unreasonable' is in the eye of the beholder. If you agree with the stance of the administration, then their guidelines will appear reasonable. If you don't agree, you will think the guidelines are unreasonable. I think the real criteria for speaking out against ones employer (government or otherwise) is if they are asking you to do something illegal or immoral. Only then is it your duty to speak out. Otherwise, express your opinions on your own time and at your own risk! Lab Lemming,

The problem with your argument is that ‘unreasonable’ is in the eye of the beholder. If you agree with the stance of the administration, then their guidelines will appear reasonable. If you don’t agree, you will think the guidelines are unreasonable.

I think the real criteria for speaking out against ones employer (government or otherwise) is if they are asking you to do something illegal or immoral. Only then is it your duty to speak out. Otherwise, express your opinions on your own time and at your own risk!

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By: Lab Lemming http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4024&cpage=1#comment-7223 Lab Lemming Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:08:43 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4024#comment-7223 Richard, The problem with those terms in conditions is when they become unreasonable. For example, a shift manager refusing to let his workers mention the word "Listeria" to his higher ups is the same as a president refusing to let his scientists mention the phrase "climate change" to the Americna public. While your general statement is true, it ignores the fact that public servants are supposed to serve the public. Richard,
The problem with those terms in conditions is when they become unreasonable. For example, a shift manager refusing to let his workers mention the word “Listeria” to his higher ups is the same as a president refusing to let his scientists mention the phrase “climate change” to the Americna public. While your general statement is true, it ignores the fact that public servants are supposed to serve the public.

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By: Jason Day http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4024&cpage=1#comment-7222 Jason Day Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:15:40 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4024#comment-7222 Richard, I'm not sure I take your meaning. My reading of your comment suggests that you think the prohibitions of the NOAA administrator were reasonable. This seems strange to me in light of the statement in the article: "and tried to bar him from using the phrase climate change at a conference. " Certainly the use of the term might be construed to have policy ramifications that the Bush Administration might not wish to address, but how could a scientist not use a scientific term? This seems to interfere with the basic job of the scientist. I also wonder fundamentally how separable the science perspective is from the policy one. I believe Roger has made similar comments in the past re: RC's self-stated role as an honest broker. Thoughts? Richard,

I’m not sure I take your meaning. My reading of your comment suggests that you think the prohibitions of the NOAA administrator were reasonable. This seems strange to me in light of the statement in the article:

“and tried to bar him from using the phrase climate change at a conference. ”

Certainly the use of the term might be construed to have policy ramifications that the Bush Administration might not wish to address, but how could a scientist not use a scientific term? This seems to interfere with the basic job of the scientist. I also wonder fundamentally how separable the science perspective is from the policy one. I believe Roger has made similar comments in the past re: RC’s self-stated role as an honest broker. Thoughts?

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By: Richard Belzer http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4024&cpage=1#comment-7221 Richard Belzer Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:33:57 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4024#comment-7221 Lab Lemming, All jobs have terms of employment that employees are reasonably expected to follow. Every new employee -- whether in the government or non-government sectors -- gets to decide whether to adhere to these terms of employment. In the government sector, failure to adhere to these terms will not lead to dismissal, but in the non-government sector it will. This creates a pair of notably perverse incentives. First, those who have no intention of being constrained by the terms of their employment contract are drawn to work in government, where they expect civil service rules to shield them from the costs of insubordination. Second, senior government managers try to discern who those people are when they apply for jobs and avoid hiring them. Scientists and other technical people are hired by government to perform scientific and technical jobs, not to make policy or even to provide policy advice. When they arrogate to themselves the authority to make policy or provide policy advice, they violate the terms of their employment. It is only the shield of civil service that protects thm from dismissal. Of course, civil service rules were established to protect against politically-motivated retaliation, not to permit or encourage insubordination. But this is the predictable result. Government scientists engaged in politically-motivated insubordination are shielded from otherwise permissible civil service sanctions because the application of such sanctions would appear to be politically motivated. Lab Lemming,

All jobs have terms of employment that employees are reasonably expected to follow. Every new employee — whether in the government or non-government sectors — gets to decide whether to adhere to these terms of employment. In the government sector, failure to adhere to these terms will not lead to dismissal, but in the non-government sector it will.

This creates a pair of notably perverse incentives. First, those who have no intention of being constrained by the terms of their employment contract are drawn to work in government, where they expect civil service rules to shield them from the costs of insubordination. Second, senior government managers try to discern who those people are when they apply for jobs and avoid hiring them.

Scientists and other technical people are hired by government to perform scientific and technical jobs, not to make policy or even to provide policy advice. When they arrogate to themselves the authority to make policy or provide policy advice, they violate the terms of their employment. It is only the shield of civil service that protects thm from dismissal.

Of course, civil service rules were established to protect against politically-motivated retaliation, not to permit or encourage insubordination. But this is the predictable result. Government scientists engaged in politically-motivated insubordination are shielded from otherwise permissible civil service sanctions because the application of such sanctions would appear to be politically motivated.

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By: Lab Lemming http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4024&cpage=1#comment-7220 Lab Lemming Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:08:14 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4024#comment-7220 Jim, Goverment employees are employed by the public, so the public has a right to know what they are doing and what they think about it. The prohibition on governemnt copyright and FOA are ample evidence that government is supposed to be as open and communicable to its owners as is practical. Jim,
Goverment employees are employed by the public, so the public has a right to know what they are doing and what they think about it. The prohibition on governemnt copyright and FOA are ample evidence that government is supposed to be as open and communicable to its owners as is practical.

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By: Richard Belzer http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4024&cpage=1#comment-7219 Richard Belzer Tue, 12 Dec 2006 23:28:26 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4024#comment-7219 My government experience spanned 3 presidents, 1988-98. From 1988-93, I was freely permitted to write papers and deliver presentations on issues relevant to my job, with the usual disclaimer that I did not speak for my employer. From 1993-98, I was not. I had to obtain prior permission from the general counsel, who was none too eager to grant it. There is an asymmetry in the way these incidents are characterized depending on which party holds the reins of government. Make a list of the ranks of so-called "whistleblowers" and you will see that they disproportionately (if not exclusively) represent one point of view. My government experience spanned 3 presidents, 1988-98. From 1988-93, I was freely permitted to write papers and deliver presentations on issues relevant to my job, with the usual disclaimer that I did not speak for my employer. From 1993-98, I was not. I had to obtain prior permission from the general counsel, who was none too eager to grant it.

There is an asymmetry in the way these incidents are characterized depending on which party holds the reins of government.

Make a list of the ranks of so-called “whistleblowers” and you will see that they disproportionately (if not exclusively) represent one point of view.

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By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4024&cpage=1#comment-7218 Roger Pielke, Jr. Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:35:17 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4024#comment-7218 Jim- Indeed for government to work it needs a consistency in approach to policies. Imagine if every State Department employee was out giving public comments about their personal views on Iran or Israel. At the same time there are more and less effective ways of managing such consistency. I discussed some of the complexities in this op-ed: http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/resource-2453-2006.04.pdf In this instance NOAA's efforts are ham-handed and self-destructive at best. Thanks! Jim- Indeed for government to work it needs a consistency in approach to policies. Imagine if every State Department employee was out giving public comments about their personal views on Iran or Israel.

At the same time there are more and less effective ways of managing such consistency. I discussed some of the complexities in this op-ed:

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/resource-2453-2006.04.pdf

In this instance NOAA’s efforts are ham-handed and self-destructive at best.

Thanks!

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By: Jim Clarke http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4024&cpage=1#comment-7217 Jim Clarke Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:16:37 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4024#comment-7217 Roger, I have spent most of my career in the private sector, but I did work with a small government agency for a few years. During that time, I had guidelines about what I should talk about while representing that agency. If one is speaking as a representitive of ones employer, isn't it expected that you speak the message the employer wishes to deliver? Isn't that your job? I find it hard to believe that federal agencies have never employed such guidelines until the current administration. Roger,

I have spent most of my career in the private sector, but I did work with a small government agency for a few years. During that time, I had guidelines about what I should talk about while representing that agency.

If one is speaking as a representitive of ones employer, isn’t it expected that you speak the message the employer wishes to deliver? Isn’t that your job?

I find it hard to believe that federal agencies have never employed such guidelines until the current administration.

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By: Joseph O'Sullivan http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4024&cpage=1#comment-7216 Joseph O'Sullivan Tue, 12 Dec 2006 03:25:16 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4024#comment-7216 I agree the public debate has spiraled out of control. One side plays hard ball and the other side becomes defensive and it degrades into a tit-for-tat situation. It would be better if there was an effort by all interested parties to seek a higher level of discussion. I agree the public debate has spiraled out of control.

One side plays hard ball and the other side becomes defensive and it degrades into a tit-for-tat situation.

It would be better if there was an effort by all interested parties to seek a higher level of discussion.

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