Comments on: Judy Curry in the Comments http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3915 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Steve Hemphill http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3915&cpage=1#comment-5486 Steve Hemphill Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:14:41 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3915#comment-5486 It has been well established that the Katrina disaster was the result of engineering failures. As Dano points out it was only a 3. The fact people who should know better still equate Katrina with "Climate Change" shows how emotionally attached they are to their dogma. A few decades ago I think this was called brainwashing... It has been well established that the Katrina disaster was the result of engineering failures. As Dano points out it was only a 3.

The fact people who should know better still equate Katrina with “Climate Change” shows how emotionally attached they are to their dogma. A few decades ago I think this was called brainwashing…

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By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3915&cpage=1#comment-5485 Roger Pielke, Jr. Wed, 23 Aug 2006 19:24:15 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3915#comment-5485 Steve- Please take the name calling elsewhere. We'd like people to stick to substance at our site. Thank you. Steve- Please take the name calling elsewhere. We’d like people to stick to substance at our site. Thank you.

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By: Steve Bloom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3915&cpage=1#comment-5484 Steve Bloom Wed, 23 Aug 2006 18:47:40 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3915#comment-5484 "In summary, while in the long term mitigation may be unavoidable, in the short-to-medium term it is likely to be ineffective. For that we need adaptation. Moreover, as the numbers in Dr. Curry’s post suggest, we can wait a few decades before irrevocably committing ourselves to a course for the long term." It's a good thing Dr. Curry suggests no such thing, Indur. You're kind of like a climate version of John Yoo, aren't you? “In summary, while in the long term mitigation may be unavoidable, in the short-to-medium term it is likely to be ineffective. For that we need adaptation. Moreover, as the numbers in Dr. Curry’s post suggest, we can wait a few decades before irrevocably committing ourselves to a course for the long term.”

It’s a good thing Dr. Curry suggests no such thing, Indur. You’re kind of like a climate version of John Yoo, aren’t you?

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By: Dario http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3915&cpage=1#comment-5483 Dario Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:14:04 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3915#comment-5483 It seems to me that a significant weight of the debate is based on Katrina. It appears to be the foundation of where the Hurricane argument begins. However, Katrina was a Category 3 storm with winds of 127 mph at landfall. http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/12/21/katrina/index.html I don't understand how this can serve as a wakeup call now when category 4 storms of the 1930s occured with more frequency. It seems to me that a significant weight of the debate is based on Katrina. It appears to be the foundation of where the Hurricane argument begins. However, Katrina was a Category 3 storm with winds of 127 mph at landfall. http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/12/21/katrina/index.html

I don’t understand how this can serve as a wakeup call now when category 4 storms of the 1930s occured with more frequency.

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By: Indur Goklany http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3915&cpage=1#comment-5482 Indur Goklany Tue, 22 Aug 2006 04:42:22 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3915#comment-5482 Regarding the previous post, I hadn't realized that the system didn't accept HTML tags -- now I know what the "No HTML will be processed" means. The paper referred to in that post can be accessed at: http://members.cox.net/igoklany/EEv16_Stab_or_Adaptation.pdf Regarding the previous post, I hadn’t realized that the system didn’t accept HTML tags — now I know what the “No HTML will be processed” means. The paper referred to in that post can be accessed at: http://members.cox.net/igoklany/EEv16_Stab_or_Adaptation.pdf

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By: Indur Goklany http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3915&cpage=1#comment-5481 Indur Goklany Tue, 22 Aug 2006 04:32:27 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3915#comment-5481 Judith Curry’s post raises a few questions. First, there seems to be a logical inconsistency in the post. She implies that we should be limiting GHG emissions now in case “a 100 years from now… there is a risk of whopper hurricanes.” Yet, she notes such limits will do little good for the next 20-50 years. If the problem is hurricanes a 100 yrs hence, what’s the hurry? Why not wait for another 50-80 years [=100-(20 to 50)]? If Dr. Curry and her colleagues keep working on the science, over the next 20-30 years we’ll have a much better idea as to whether hurricanes are getting stronger and, if so, how rapidly. It will also give us time to better understand the climate system, its impacts on aspects other than hurricanes, and the social and economic consequences of responses. No less important, we’ll also have a wider and, if we use the time gainfully, possibly a more cost-effective set of response options to draw upon so that if and when it becomes necessary to reduce emissions it can be done more effectively (and economically) even if reductions have to be deeper. In any case, that still leaves us with 30-50 years margin of error. So it doesn’t seem that there is any need to rush to reduce GHG emissions now on account of any increase in hurricane intensities (and durations and frequencies) because of climate change. Second, if Hurricane Katrina served as a “wake up call” to the American public that storms might become more destructive because of global warming, then it’s waking up to the wrong alarm. Yes, we are awake, but we are headed to the wrong appointment. It’s as if we should be headed for our SAT exams, rather than for a workout in the gym. Hurricane Katrina, and the damage it wrought, had more to do with human failings – and the failure of the levees – than any intensification due to climate change (as Kenneth V aptly notes elsewhere). If 100 years ago, we had stopped any increases in CO2 emissions and all else stayed as it was in 2005, the levees would still have failed and the inhabitants of New Orleans would still have suffered the same tragedy. On the other hand, reinforcing the levees and/or more timely evacuation of the residents of the city – both adaptations rather than emission limitations – would have reduced the death and destruction. Third, the discussion regarding climate change and what to do about it seems to be oblivious to the fact that the world — and the US — face numerous problems in addition to climate change. [This is the climate-change-uber-alles fallacy.] Putting resources into addressing one problem, means that much fewer resources for addressing others. This normally wouldn’t be as much of a problem, if the magnitude of resources involved were trivial, but if they were indeed trivial they wouldn’t be an issue now. Regarding Andrew Dessler’s post, there are a few more questions that one should ask in addition to those he (and Mark) list. They include the following: • What will be our adaptive capacity 100 years hence, and how likely will it be that we’ll utilize it? This, in my estimate, was the major failing regarding Hurricane Katrina. We had the adaptive capacity to reduce death and destruction significantly had the levees been reinforced or evacuation been more efficient, but we failed to do so. Reducing GHG emissions would not guarantee against such human/social/institutional failures. • How much will adaptation cost and how much will that reduce hurricane impacts? • Another question, which follows from the third point noted above, is: What are the opportunity costs of trying to reduce hurricane damages by attacking GHG emissions rather than through adaptation? Regarding the missile defense system, I would presume similar questions were asked and answered at least qualitatively, before any one proceeded with the system. If no one did, or if we went ahead with the system despite getting unfavorable answers to those questions, then clearly we did something dumb. In any case, whether we do a dumb thing once – or for that matter, several times -- shouldn’t condemn us to doing other dumb things in perpetuity. In other words, it’s never too late to try to improve our process of developing and analyzing policy options. Nevertheless, I note that while adaptation to hurricanes will address only the hurricane/coastal flooding issue, limiting GHG emissions would address the many other problems that climate change may contribute to or cause. In essence, it may be argued that reducing climate change is akin to killing several birds with one stone. Despite this inherent advantage, I have shown in a paper titled, “A Climate Policy for the Short and Medium Term: Stabilization or Adaptation?”, that in the short-to-medium term, reducing the vulnerability to current climate-sensitive problems (e.g., hurricanes) that might be exacerbated by climate change is likely to be more cost-effective than any mitigation or, for that matter, reducing vulnerability only to the impacts of climate change. [This analysis doesn’t take into consideration climate surprises; but that’s another story.] Three fundamental reasons contribute to this result (discussed below, for brevity’s sake, in the context of hurricanes). First as Dr. Curry suggests, emission reductions will have little or no impact on climate change in the short-to-medium term. However, we can reduce vulnerability substantially over this time frame. Second, reducing vulnerability to hurricanes in general is a holistic approach to the problem since it addresses the contribution of both climate change and non-climate-change-related factors (such as current climate and climate variability) to the hurricane problem. By contrast, emission reductions would, at best, only address that portion of the hurricane problem due to climate change. Thus, reducing vulnerability to hurricanes in general would be addressing a larger problem than would any reduction in climate change. Third, technologies, practices, systems and institutions that would reduce vulnerability to hurricanes today will all help reduce vulnerability to hurricanes tomorrow, whether or not they are more frequent, intense or of greater duration because of climate change. In summary, while in the long term mitigation may be unavoidable, in the short-to-medium term it is likely to be ineffective. For that we need adaptation. Moreover, as the numbers in Dr. Curry’s post suggest, we can wait a few decades before irrevocably committing ourselves to a course for the long term. Judith Curry’s post raises a few questions. First, there seems to be a logical inconsistency in the post. She implies that we should be limiting GHG emissions now in case “a 100 years from now… there is a risk of whopper hurricanes.” Yet, she notes such limits will do little good for the next 20-50 years. If the problem is hurricanes a 100 yrs hence, what’s the hurry? Why not wait for another 50-80 years [=100-(20 to 50)]? If Dr. Curry and her colleagues keep working on the science, over the next 20-30 years we’ll have a much better idea as to whether hurricanes are getting stronger and, if so, how rapidly. It will also give us time to better understand the climate system, its impacts on aspects other than hurricanes, and the social and economic consequences of responses. No less important, we’ll also have a wider and, if we use the time gainfully, possibly a more cost-effective set of response options to draw upon so that if and when it becomes necessary to reduce emissions it can be done more effectively (and economically) even if reductions have to be deeper. In any case, that still leaves us with 30-50 years margin of error. So it doesn’t seem that there is any need to rush to reduce GHG emissions now on account of any increase in hurricane intensities (and durations and frequencies) because of climate change.

Second, if Hurricane Katrina served as a “wake up call” to the American public that storms might become more destructive because of global warming, then it’s waking up to the wrong alarm. Yes, we are awake, but we are headed to the wrong appointment. It’s as if we should be headed for our SAT exams, rather than for a workout in the gym. Hurricane Katrina, and the damage it wrought, had more to do with human failings – and the failure of the levees – than any intensification due to climate change (as Kenneth V aptly notes elsewhere). If 100 years ago, we had stopped any increases in CO2 emissions and all else stayed as it was in 2005, the levees would still have failed and the inhabitants of New Orleans would still have suffered the same tragedy. On the other hand, reinforcing the levees and/or more timely evacuation of the residents of the city – both adaptations rather than emission limitations – would have reduced the death and destruction.

Third, the discussion regarding climate change and what to do about it seems to be oblivious to the fact that the world — and the US — face numerous problems in addition to climate change. [This is the climate-change-uber-alles fallacy.] Putting resources into addressing one problem, means that much fewer resources for addressing others. This normally wouldn’t be as much of a problem, if the magnitude of resources involved were trivial, but if they were indeed trivial they wouldn’t be an issue now.

Regarding Andrew Dessler’s post, there are a few more questions that one should ask in addition to those he (and Mark) list. They include the following:
• What will be our adaptive capacity 100 years hence, and how likely will it be that we’ll utilize it? This, in my estimate, was the major failing regarding Hurricane Katrina. We had the adaptive capacity to reduce death and destruction significantly had the levees been reinforced or evacuation been more efficient, but we failed to do so. Reducing GHG emissions would not guarantee against such human/social/institutional failures.
• How much will adaptation cost and how much will that reduce hurricane impacts?
• Another question, which follows from the third point noted above, is: What are the opportunity costs of trying to reduce hurricane damages by attacking GHG emissions rather than through adaptation?

Regarding the missile defense system, I would presume similar questions were asked and answered at least qualitatively, before any one proceeded with the system. If no one did, or if we went ahead with the system despite getting unfavorable answers to those questions, then clearly we did something dumb. In any case, whether we do a dumb thing once – or for that matter, several times — shouldn’t condemn us to doing other dumb things in perpetuity. In other words, it’s never too late to try to improve our process of developing and analyzing policy options.

Nevertheless, I note that while adaptation to hurricanes will address only the hurricane/coastal flooding issue, limiting GHG emissions would address the many other problems that climate change may contribute to or cause. In essence, it may be argued that reducing climate change is akin to killing several birds with one stone. Despite this inherent advantage, I have shown in a paper titled, “A
Climate Policy for the Short and Medium Term: Stabilization or
Adaptation?”, that in the short-to-medium term, reducing the vulnerability to current climate-sensitive problems (e.g., hurricanes) that might be exacerbated by climate change is likely to be more cost-effective than any mitigation or, for that matter, reducing vulnerability only to the impacts of climate change. [This analysis doesn’t take into consideration climate surprises; but that’s another story.]

Three fundamental reasons contribute to this result (discussed below, for brevity’s sake, in the context of hurricanes). First as Dr. Curry suggests, emission reductions will have little or no impact on climate change in the short-to-medium term. However, we can reduce vulnerability substantially over this time frame. Second, reducing vulnerability to hurricanes in general is a holistic approach to the problem since it addresses the contribution of both climate change and non-climate-change-related factors (such as current climate and climate variability) to the hurricane problem. By contrast, emission reductions would, at best, only address that portion of the hurricane problem due to climate change. Thus, reducing vulnerability to hurricanes in general would be addressing a larger problem than would any reduction in climate change. Third, technologies, practices, systems and institutions that would reduce vulnerability to hurricanes today will all help reduce vulnerability to hurricanes tomorrow, whether or not they are more frequent, intense or of greater duration because of climate change.

In summary, while in the long term mitigation may be unavoidable, in the short-to-medium term it is likely to be ineffective. For that we need adaptation. Moreover, as the numbers in Dr. Curry’s post suggest, we can wait a few decades before irrevocably committing ourselves to a course for the long term.

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By: Sylvain http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3915&cpage=1#comment-5480 Sylvain Tue, 22 Aug 2006 02:34:10 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3915#comment-5480 Can anyone explain to me why a difference of 1°C in the next 100 years would be much worst than the 1°C seen in the last 150 years or so? Also why acting on future threat is more important than adapt to present threat? Can anyone explain to me why a difference of 1°C in the next 100 years would be much worst than the 1°C seen in the last 150 years or so?

Also why acting on future threat is more important than adapt to present threat?

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By: kevin v http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3915&cpage=1#comment-5479 kevin v Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:51:13 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3915#comment-5479 Judy and all - I have a very long comment about using Katrina as a focusing event. It's too long for this forum so I wrote a post here: http://scienceblogs.com/nosenada/2006/08/katrina_was_an_engineering_cat.php Judy and all – I have a very long comment about using Katrina as a focusing event. It’s too long for this forum so I wrote a post here:

http://scienceblogs.com/nosenada/2006/08/katrina_was_an_engineering_cat.php

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By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3915&cpage=1#comment-5478 Roger Pielke, Jr. Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:44:29 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3915#comment-5478 Markk- On adaptation, perhaps this might help: http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000844climate_change_is_a_.html For more on the politics of adaptation see: Pielke, Jr., R.A., 2005. Misdefining ‘‘climate change’’: consequences for science and action, Environmental Science & Policy, Vol. 8, pp. 548-561. http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/resource-1841-2004.10.pdf Markk- On adaptation, perhaps this might help:

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000844climate_change_is_a_.html

For more on the politics of adaptation see:

Pielke, Jr., R.A., 2005. Misdefining ‘‘climate change’’: consequences for science and action, Environmental Science & Policy, Vol. 8, pp. 548-561.
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/resource-1841-2004.10.pdf

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By: Markk http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3915&cpage=1#comment-5477 Markk Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:14:10 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3915#comment-5477 It seems to me that there is some undercurrent to this mitigation vs adaptation line I am not getting. They are of course not opposites. In fact I can't see how people who are for "conservation" can be against "adaptation", since the former is just an example of the latter. Pointing out that money spent on adaptation means we are not focusing enough on "mitigation" like the quote given above is a bad argument that very few people are making at least in view of the public (i.e. me) so I feel like I am missing something. It seems to me that there is some undercurrent to this mitigation vs adaptation line I am not getting. They are of course not opposites. In fact I can’t see how people who are for “conservation” can be against “adaptation”, since the former is just an example of the latter. Pointing out that money spent on adaptation means we are not focusing enough on “mitigation” like the quote given above is a bad argument that very few people are making at least in view of the public (i.e. me) so I feel like I am missing something.

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