Comments on: Climate Science Infallibility Syndrome http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Man Based Global Warming.... - Page 89 - PriusChat Forums http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915&cpage=1#comment-13695 Man Based Global Warming.... - Page 89 - PriusChat Forums Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:25:53 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915#comment-13695 [...] One of the more reasonable voices I've encountered exploring this area is that of Roger Pielke: Prometheus Blog Archive Climate Science Infallibility Syndrome And he basically accepts AGW, so his views shouldn't be discredited on the basis of being a [...] [...] One of the more reasonable voices I’ve encountered exploring this area is that of Roger Pielke: Prometheus Blog Archive Climate Science Infallibility Syndrome And he basically accepts AGW, so his views shouldn’t be discredited on the basis of being a [...]

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By: The Pope Should Learn A Thing Or Two From Certain Climate Scientists « The Unbearable Nakedness of CLIMATE CHANGE http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915&cpage=1#comment-12034 The Pope Should Learn A Thing Or Two From Certain Climate Scientists « The Unbearable Nakedness of CLIMATE CHANGE Mon, 09 Feb 2009 00:03:34 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915#comment-12034 [...] Who could have ever imagined, the white-robed guy in Rome somehow admitting fallibility, whilst there still is nothing, nothing, nothing at all that will ever under any circumstance contradict contemporary consensual [...] [...] Who could have ever imagined, the white-robed guy in Rome somehow admitting fallibility, whilst there still is nothing, nothing, nothing at all that will ever under any circumstance contradict contemporary consensual [...]

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By: solman http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915&cpage=1#comment-11757 solman Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:45:52 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915#comment-11757 My original comment in this thread was a genuine one. I wanted to know whether or not the review process at Nature is sufficiently stringent that those papers which are published by Nature can be relied upon - even if one of the authors (Michael Mann in this case) appears to have a history of questionable conduct. I did NOT expect serious data integrity issues to be uncovered by the merry band at Climate Audit after just a few days of analysis. Steig et al is essentially a statistical paper, applying new methodology to existing data in an attempt to provide a more coherent picture of recent antarctic climate change. When such a paper is published in Nature, don't I have the right to expect that the authors have a sufficient understanding of the underlying data sources that any obvious errors have been fixed or corrected? How can climate science move forward if even papers in the most prestigious journals must be subjected to additional external analysis before they can be relied upon. Of course errors are going to occur in the course of science. I am not complaining about a single error. My complaint is that there has been a long series of errors, all of which seem to be in the same direction (towards promoting the IPCC consensus), and that there has been no corrective action by the scientific community. To answer my original question: After this latest incident I think it is entirely unreasonable to take climate science papers published in Nature at face value without first subjecting them to additional analysis. That is a very sad state of affairs indeed. My original comment in this thread was a genuine one. I wanted to know whether or not the review process at Nature is sufficiently stringent that those papers which are published by Nature can be relied upon – even if one of the authors (Michael Mann in this case) appears to have a history of questionable conduct.

I did NOT expect serious data integrity issues to be uncovered by the merry band at Climate Audit after just a few days of analysis.

Steig et al is essentially a statistical paper, applying new methodology to existing data in an attempt to provide a more coherent picture of recent antarctic climate change.

When such a paper is published in Nature, don’t I have the right to expect that the authors have a sufficient understanding of the underlying data sources that any obvious errors have been fixed or corrected?

How can climate science move forward if even papers in the most prestigious journals must be subjected to additional external analysis before they can be relied upon.

Of course errors are going to occur in the course of science. I am not complaining about a single error. My complaint is that there has been a long series of errors, all of which seem to be in the same direction (towards promoting the IPCC consensus), and that there has been no corrective action by the scientific community.

To answer my original question: After this latest incident I think it is entirely unreasonable to take climate science papers published in Nature at face value without first subjecting them to additional analysis. That is a very sad state of affairs indeed.

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By: Marginalized Action Dinosaur » The perils of climate science infallibility syndrome. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915&cpage=1#comment-11753 Marginalized Action Dinosaur » The perils of climate science infallibility syndrome. Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:05:51 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915#comment-11753 [...] http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/climate-science-infallibility-syndrome-4915#more-4915 [...] [...] http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/climate-science-infallibility-syndrome-4915#more-4915 [...]

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By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915&cpage=1#comment-11750 Mark Bahner Sun, 01 Feb 2009 19:37:00 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915#comment-11750 Steve McIntyre writes, "Perhaps Roger’s idea of 'infallibility complex' is the explanation. If they are “infallible”, then an error can only occur through fraud. Thus the mere hint of the possibility of error is a 'thinly-veiled accusations of scientific fraud'." I thought Eric Steig's whole response to Roger's review and questions was bizarre. To start with, Steig wrote, "I have to admit I cringed when guest writer Weart wrote the article on RealClimate, which I didn’t get a chance to read first. I’m not sure what models he was talking about that said Antarctica should be cooling." But then he changed his position, and insisted, "All. I should clarify my point. When I said that 'I cringed' I don’t mean that I thought there was anything wrong with Spencer’s article. I meant that I thought he wasn’t clear enough that he was referring to the models show a slower warming in Antarctica than e.g. in the Arctic, which was and remains the correct assessment of what the model show." So he initially seemed to be pretty clearly stating that his interpretation of Spencer Weart's post was that Weart was saying that there were at least some models that were predicting that "Antartica should be cooling." But then he dropped even the idea that Weart's post implied that at least some models said that Antarctica should be cooling. Steve McIntyre writes, “Perhaps Roger’s idea of ‘infallibility complex’ is the explanation. If they are “infallible”, then an error can only occur through fraud. Thus the mere hint of the possibility of error is a ‘thinly-veiled accusations of scientific fraud’.”

I thought Eric Steig’s whole response to Roger’s review and questions was bizarre.

To start with, Steig wrote, “I have to admit I cringed when guest writer Weart wrote the article on RealClimate, which I didn’t get a chance to read first. I’m not sure what models he was talking about that said Antarctica should be cooling.”

But then he changed his position, and insisted, “All. I should clarify my point. When I said that ‘I cringed’ I don’t mean that I thought there was anything wrong with Spencer’s article. I meant that I thought he wasn’t clear enough that he was referring to the models show a slower warming in Antarctica than e.g. in the Arctic, which was and remains the correct assessment of what the model show.”

So he initially seemed to be pretty clearly stating that his interpretation of Spencer Weart’s post was that Weart was saying that there were at least some models that were predicting that “Antartica should be cooling.”

But then he dropped even the idea that Weart’s post implied that at least some models said that Antarctica should be cooling.

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By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915&cpage=1#comment-11749 Mark Bahner Sun, 01 Feb 2009 19:16:21 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915#comment-11749 "As such, the existence of a strong consensus is entirely relevant. Moreover, a consensus of risk amongst experts should not lightly be ignored." The IPCC has published no consensus of the overall risk related to climate change. As was pointed out by Kevin Trenberth on the Nature blog ("Climate Feedback") the IPCC has never made any predictions of the amount of future climate change: http://blogs.nature.com/climatefeedback/2007/06/predictions_of_climate.html If the IPCC hasn't ever made any predictions about the amount of future climate change, they can't have reached any consensus on the amount of risk, since the amount of risk related to climate change is obviously dependent on the amount of climate change. “As such, the existence of a strong consensus is entirely relevant. Moreover, a consensus of risk amongst experts should not lightly be ignored.”

The IPCC has published no consensus of the overall risk related to climate change.

As was pointed out by Kevin Trenberth on the Nature blog (“Climate Feedback”) the IPCC has never made any predictions of the amount of future climate change:

http://blogs.nature.com/climatefeedback/2007/06/predictions_of_climate.html

If the IPCC hasn’t ever made any predictions about the amount of future climate change, they can’t have reached any consensus on the amount of risk, since the amount of risk related to climate change is obviously dependent on the amount of climate change.

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By: Steve McIntyre http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915&cpage=1#comment-11747 Steve McIntyre Sun, 01 Feb 2009 14:04:29 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915#comment-11747 Steig's reaction at Climate Audit showed another dark side of the "infallibility syndrome" - accusing anyone who dates to query the methods as making "implied insinuation of fraud". As Chip observed above, my opening observations on this study were very evenhanded, mostly putting readers on notice that they couldn't reject the results on simplistic terms. Chip quoted some of my comments above: <blockquote>In fairness, this is a far more sensible application of infilling methods than paleoclimate. Here everything is at least a temperature of some kind. RegEM and PCA have a far better chance of yielding a sensible result in this sort of application than using Graybill bristlecone ring widths. Data in Antarctic is sparse. It’s odd that it wouldn’t have warmed up with the rest of the world. Readers shouldn’t drop standards of data rigor merely because they like Antarctic data that seems to go down. It’s quite reasonable to cross-examine the Antarctic data to see if a different interpretation of it is possible.</blockquote> Despite this and other evenhanded statements, Steig intervened at CA as follows: http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=4945#comment-322363 <blockquote>I will not further respond to queries from Steve McIntyre by email, nor via this blog. I have always given you the benefit of the doubt, but your thinly-veiled accusations of scientific fraud (by association!) have crossed an important ethical line. Shame on you.</blockquote> I had made no such "thinly-veiled accusations" and asked for information on where I had allegedly made such claims. No answer. The matter perplexed me. Perhaps Roger's idea of "infallibility complex" is the explanation. If they are "infallible", then an error can only occur through fraud. Thus the mere hint of the possibility of error is a "thinly-veiled accusations of scientific fraud". Steig’s reaction at Climate Audit showed another dark side of the “infallibility syndrome” – accusing anyone who dates to query the methods as making “implied insinuation of fraud”. As Chip observed above, my opening observations on this study were very evenhanded, mostly putting readers on notice that they couldn’t reject the results on simplistic terms. Chip quoted some of my comments above:

In fairness, this is a far more sensible application of infilling methods than paleoclimate. Here everything is at least a temperature of some kind. RegEM and PCA have a far better chance of yielding a sensible result in this sort of application than using Graybill bristlecone ring widths.

Data in Antarctic is sparse. It’s odd that it wouldn’t have warmed up with the rest of the world. Readers shouldn’t drop standards of data rigor merely because they like Antarctic data that seems to go down. It’s quite reasonable to cross-examine the Antarctic data to see if a different interpretation of it is possible.

Despite this and other evenhanded statements, Steig intervened at CA as follows: http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=4945#comment-322363

I will not further respond to queries from Steve McIntyre by email, nor via this blog. I have always given you the benefit of the doubt, but your thinly-veiled accusations of scientific fraud (by association!) have crossed an important ethical line. Shame on you.

I had made no such “thinly-veiled accusations” and asked for information on where I had allegedly made such claims. No answer. The matter perplexed me. Perhaps Roger’s idea of “infallibility complex” is the explanation. If they are “infallible”, then an error can only occur through fraud. Thus the mere hint of the possibility of error is a “thinly-veiled accusations of scientific fraud”.

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By: Hans Erren http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915&cpage=1#comment-11746 Hans Erren Sun, 01 Feb 2009 11:15:07 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915#comment-11746 It appears that the most essential part of the the publication is not available: data and method. One might as well claim that the moon is made of green cheese. It appears that the most essential part of the the publication is not available: data and method.
One might as well claim that the moon is made of green cheese.

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By: Steve McIntyre http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915&cpage=1#comment-11745 Steve McIntyre Sun, 01 Feb 2009 06:39:34 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915#comment-11745 Lots that I agree with in this post and comments. Lucia, the following isn't correct: <blockquote>But, if I understand Steve, what he seems to be saying is that, on first glance, he’s not finding anything wrong.</blockquote> Not at all. At first glance, I have no opinion and I'm nowhere near having an opinion on this. I like to handle the data a bit before looking at the methods and I'm just starting this process. I don't exclude the possibility that the methods are reasonable. However, the methods appear to be somewhat homemade and this always introduces an element of risk. I suggested to Steig that archive their code but he told me to suck eggs. Plus the monthly satellite data as used in the study isn't available. I requested this from Steig; at first, he said that he would provide it; then he told me to suck eggs. I will, of course, pursue alternative avenues - the journal, FOI - to obtain the data. It's a nuisance, but will provide some lively blog posts. Lots that I agree with in this post and comments.

Lucia, the following isn’t correct:

But, if I understand Steve, what he seems to be saying is that, on first glance, he’s not finding anything wrong.

Not at all. At first glance, I have no opinion and I’m nowhere near having an opinion on this. I like to handle the data a bit before looking at the methods and I’m just starting this process.

I don’t exclude the possibility that the methods are reasonable. However, the methods appear to be somewhat homemade and this always introduces an element of risk. I suggested to Steig that archive their code but he told me to suck eggs.

Plus the monthly satellite data as used in the study isn’t available. I requested this from Steig; at first, he said that he would provide it; then he told me to suck eggs. I will, of course, pursue alternative avenues – the journal, FOI – to obtain the data. It’s a nuisance, but will provide some lively blog posts.

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By: Paul Biggs http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915&cpage=1#comment-11741 Paul Biggs Sat, 31 Jan 2009 17:04:03 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4915#comment-11741 Oh Please! Don't quote rabid anti-skeptic and 'science historian' Oreskes at me, who only considers Abstracts with 'global climate change' in them. Most climate scientists don't express a public opinion on man's role in climate or the significance of the contribution of CO2 to that role. Furthermore, views are unlikely to be black and white - there are shades of grey. I repeat that consensus is a political term, not a scientific one. Careful examination of the 4000 contributors to IPCC AR4 distils down to about 60 people who explicitly support its claims: http://mclean.ch/climate/docs/IPCC_numbers.pdf Oh Please! Don’t quote rabid anti-skeptic and ’science historian’ Oreskes at me, who only considers Abstracts with ‘global climate change’ in them. Most climate scientists don’t express a public opinion on man’s role in climate or the significance of the contribution of CO2 to that role. Furthermore, views are unlikely to be black and white – there are shades of grey. I repeat that consensus is a political term, not a scientific one. Careful examination of the 4000 contributors to IPCC AR4 distils down to about 60 people who explicitly support its claims:

http://mclean.ch/climate/docs/IPCC_numbers.pdf

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