Comments on: Dave Roberts Responds on The Climate Debate http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3846 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3846&cpage=1#comment-4797 Roger Pielke, Jr. Tue, 30 May 2006 23:37:41 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3846#comment-4797 Dave- Thanks. So at the same time you feel comfortabl;e saying you are not going to read my work, you also feel confident dismissing it as "not policy." Its hard to argue with that logic! ;-) I'm not sure what pithy statment you might be looking for - perhaps short phrases with words like "carbon trading" or "McCain/Lieberman" or "2 degrees C" or "dangerous interference" or "CAFE"? The problem is that none of these familiar policy options on the table are up to the task of either reducing emissions or reducing vulnerability to climate. Hence the details matter. Peer reviewed policy research matters. Your post on adaptation focuses on a strategy of a political campaign -- "The public needs to accept the fact the global warming is happening, that it's bad, and that we need to stop accelerating it." http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/5/28/12824/1464 This is not a policy recommendation, but a political call to arms. As we've documented here many times the public is already there. The problem is that we've got nothing to offer them as far as policy options. Such a circumstance risks that the issue-attenion cycle will inevitably work its course and while symbolic action may or may not be taken, meanigful action clearly won't unless options are there first. Calling for emisisons reductions without a way to achieve them is simply empty exhortation. Devising policy options requires more than just rallying around shared values -- it requires delving into the nitty-gritty details of policy. You seem to think that a consensus on values and science preceeds the invention of effective policy options. I believe that it is through effective policy options that we reach consensus on values and science. And perhaps that is where we most disagree. Thanks. Dave-

Thanks. So at the same time you feel comfortabl;e saying you are not going to read my work, you also feel confident dismissing it as “not policy.” Its hard to argue with that logic! ;-)

I’m not sure what pithy statment you might be looking for – perhaps short phrases with words like “carbon trading” or “McCain/Lieberman” or “2 degrees C” or “dangerous interference” or “CAFE”? The problem is that none of these familiar policy options on the table are up to the task of either reducing emissions or reducing vulnerability to climate. Hence the details matter. Peer reviewed policy research matters.

Your post on adaptation focuses on a strategy of a political campaign — “The public needs to accept the fact the global warming is happening, that it’s bad, and that we need to stop accelerating it.”
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/5/28/12824/1464

This is not a policy recommendation, but a political call to arms. As we’ve documented here many times the public is already there. The problem is that we’ve got nothing to offer them as far as policy options. Such a circumstance risks that the issue-attenion cycle will inevitably work its course and while symbolic action may or may not be taken, meanigful action clearly won’t unless options are there first.

Calling for emisisons reductions without a way to achieve them is simply empty exhortation. Devising policy options requires more than just rallying around shared values — it requires delving into the nitty-gritty details of policy.

You seem to think that a consensus on values and science preceeds the invention of effective policy options. I believe that it is through effective policy options that we reach consensus on values and science. And perhaps that is where we most disagree.

Thanks.

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By: David Roberts http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3846&cpage=1#comment-4796 David Roberts Tue, 30 May 2006 22:42:28 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3846#comment-4796 Roger, I'm slammed today and don't have time to say much. Just two quick things. 1. The post immediately following the one you spend all your time on has much more to do with questions of policy and mitigation vs. adaptation. And I discuss policy options a bit in my recent op-ed here: http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/05/25/the_alt_fuels_distraction.php 2. I, like 99% of the other people reading this, am not going to take the time to click on and read all 20 of the links you just pasted in. It's clear from a quick scan that many of them have to do with framing and arguing, not policy. What I would prefer, and I doubt I'm the only one, is a reasonably short, concise summary of the policy options you would favor to address climate change -- or not, as the case may be. Roger, I’m slammed today and don’t have time to say much. Just two quick things.

1. The post immediately following the one you spend all your time on has much more to do with questions of policy and mitigation vs. adaptation. And I discuss policy options a bit in my recent op-ed here:

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/05/25/the_alt_fuels_distraction.php

2. I, like 99% of the other people reading this, am not going to take the time to click on and read all 20 of the links you just pasted in. It’s clear from a quick scan that many of them have to do with framing and arguing, not policy. What I would prefer, and I doubt I’m the only one, is a reasonably short, concise summary of the policy options you would favor to address climate change — or not, as the case may be.

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By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3846&cpage=1#comment-4795 Roger Pielke, Jr. Tue, 30 May 2006 20:23:30 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3846#comment-4795 Marlowe- Thanks for your comments. We teach in our policy classes that "do nothing" is an option like all the rest. The question is "what to do?" We often raise policy options for discussion here, and off the top of my head here is a quick set of links to some specific recommendations we have made on this site over the past few years: 1. Consider disaster mitigation as a climate policy. Sarewitz, D. and R. A. Pielke, Jr., 2000. Breaking the Global-Warming Gridlock. The Atlantic Monthly, 286(1), 55-64. http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/resource-69-2000.18.pdf 2. Focus attention on "no-regrets" energy policies: Pielke, Jr., R.A., 2005. Misdefining ‘‘climate change’’: consequences for science and action, Environmental Science & Policy, Vol. 8, pp. 548-561. http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/publications/show_all_pubs.html?showAllRecords=true&sortBy=date http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/energy_policy/000436cart_or_horse.html http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000785congressional_opinio.html http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/environment/000810myths_of_the_history.html http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000339making_sense_of_the_.html 3. Re-open Article 2 of the FCCC for reconsidering its narrow definition of "climate change": Pielke, Jr., R.A., 2005. Misdefining ‘‘climate change’’: consequences for science and action, Environmental Science & Policy, Vol. 8, pp. 548-561. http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/publications/show_all_pubs.html?showAllRecords=true&sortBy=date 4. Consider population growth in any international emissions protocol as a factor in national incentives to participate: http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000192population_greenhou.html 5. Don't waste time on convincing the public that climate change is a problem http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000054a_myth_about_public_.html 6. Focus debate on policy options not scientific disputes http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/author_pielke_jr_r/000665the_policy_gap_on_cl.html 7. Consider far out technological options, like air capture http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/environment/000658get_ready_for_air_ca.html http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000789some_simple_economic.html 8. Open debate to alternative voices and views http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/index.html#000758 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000718europes_long_term_c.html http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000274clear_thinking_on_cl.html 9. Don't make bad arguments for good causes http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/science_policy_general/000737bad_arguments_for_g.html 10. Put adaptation on a more even footing with mitigation Pielke, Jr., R. A., 2004. What is Climate Change?, Issues in Science and Technology, Summer, 1-4. http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/resource-486-2004.09.pdf That is a start! Marlowe-

Thanks for your comments. We teach in our policy classes that “do nothing” is an option like all the rest. The question is “what to do?”

We often raise policy options for discussion here, and off the top of my head here is a quick set of links to some specific recommendations we have made on this site over the past few years:

1. Consider disaster mitigation as a climate policy.

Sarewitz, D. and R. A. Pielke, Jr., 2000. Breaking the Global-Warming Gridlock. The Atlantic Monthly, 286(1), 55-64.
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/resource-69-2000.18.pdf

2. Focus attention on “no-regrets” energy policies:

Pielke, Jr., R.A., 2005. Misdefining ‘‘climate change’’: consequences for science and action, Environmental Science & Policy, Vol. 8, pp. 548-561.
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/publications/show_all_pubs.html?showAllRecords=true&sortBy=date

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/energy_policy/000436cart_or_horse.html

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000785congressional_opinio.html

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/environment/000810myths_of_the_history.html

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000339making_sense_of_the_.html

3. Re-open Article 2 of the FCCC for reconsidering its narrow definition of “climate change”:

Pielke, Jr., R.A., 2005. Misdefining ‘‘climate change’’: consequences for science and action, Environmental Science & Policy, Vol. 8, pp. 548-561.
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/publications/show_all_pubs.html?showAllRecords=true&sortBy=date

4. Consider population growth in any international emissions protocol as a factor in national incentives to participate:

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000192population_greenhou.html

5. Don’t waste time on convincing the public that climate change is a problem

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000054a_myth_about_public_.html

6. Focus debate on policy options not scientific disputes

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/author_pielke_jr_r/000665the_policy_gap_on_cl.html

7. Consider far out technological options, like air capture

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/environment/000658get_ready_for_air_ca.html

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000789some_simple_economic.html

8. Open debate to alternative voices and views

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/index.html#000758

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000718europes_long_term_c.html

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000274clear_thinking_on_cl.html

9. Don’t make bad arguments for good causes

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/science_policy_general/000737bad_arguments_for_g.html

10. Put adaptation on a more even footing with mitigation

Pielke, Jr., R. A., 2004. What is Climate Change?, Issues in Science and Technology, Summer, 1-4.
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/resource-486-2004.09.pdf

That is a start!

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By: Marlowe Johnson http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3846&cpage=1#comment-4794 Marlowe Johnson Tue, 30 May 2006 19:52:19 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3846#comment-4794 Roger, If the two policy options are a) do something vs. b) do nothing, what is the third option? Maybe I'm not framing the issue correctly? Perhaps you mean to say that a "third way" is simply a sub-option of a)? If that's the case then what do you suggest? I've been following this blog for quite a while and I haven't really seen much offered in the way of alternative options. Personally, I think that one alternative is a global carbon tax (collected at the national level with a portion going to an international fund). This approach has the advantage of being much more transparent and administratively simpler than the current KP setup. The fund could be used to finance adaptation initiatives in developing countries and/or offset projects, for example. While I haven't read the Nordhaus analysis on this, I suspect it boils down to the $ savings from the equimarginal approach of Kyoto being lost in all the bureaucracries needed to setup and monitor the system... Roger,

If the two policy options are a) do something vs. b) do nothing, what is the third option? Maybe I’m not framing the issue correctly? Perhaps you mean to say that a “third way” is simply a sub-option of a)? If that’s the case then what do you suggest? I’ve been following this blog for quite a while and I haven’t really seen much offered in the way of alternative options.

Personally, I think that one alternative is a global carbon tax (collected at the national level with a portion going to an international fund). This approach has the advantage of being much more transparent and administratively simpler than the current KP setup. The fund could be used to finance adaptation initiatives in developing countries and/or offset projects, for example. While I haven’t read the Nordhaus analysis on this, I suspect it boils down to the $ savings from the equimarginal approach of Kyoto being lost in all the bureaucracries needed to setup and monitor the system…

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By: Benny Peiser http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3846&cpage=1#comment-4793 Benny Peiser Tue, 30 May 2006 15:03:44 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3846#comment-4793 Roger It was just a question of time that climate apocalyptics would turn their flak on non-sceptics who question the alarmists' party line. As far as prophets of doom are concerned, you are either with them, or you are against them. Any third way policy is only acceptable to liberal minds, not fanatics. As I have been warning for some time, this is no longer about the science of climate change. This has turned into a radical salvationist campaign to saving the planet, no less. And anyone who refuses to take sides in this manichaen battle between good and evil is regarded as a potential enemy or a traitor. If you think that I am exaggerating, please consider the implications of tomorrow's demonstration by the U.S. Climate Emergency Council. Quote: Hundreds of concerned citizens and leaders from across the nation will join Hurricane Katrina survivors Wednesday to call for the resignation of the heads of the National Hurricane Center (NHC) and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) at NOAA Headquarters just outside of Washington, D.C. During an 11 a.m. demonstration, advocates will demand that NOAA stop covering up the growing scientific link between severe hurricanes and global warming while insisting on real solutions to the problem of global warming. http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=66589 Who will be the next of this witch-hunt? Ah well, at least the hunters are only calling for heads to roll, and not for a return to burning at the stake.... Roger

It was just a question of time that climate apocalyptics would turn their flak on non-sceptics who question the alarmists’ party line. As far as prophets of doom are concerned, you are either with them, or you are against them. Any third way policy is only acceptable to liberal minds, not fanatics.

As I have been warning for some time, this is no longer about the science of climate change. This has turned into a radical salvationist campaign to saving the planet, no less. And anyone who refuses to take sides in this manichaen battle between good and evil is regarded as a potential enemy or a traitor.

If you think that I am exaggerating, please consider the implications of tomorrow’s demonstration by the U.S. Climate Emergency Council. Quote:

Hundreds of concerned citizens and leaders from across the nation will join Hurricane Katrina survivors Wednesday to call for the resignation of the heads of the National Hurricane Center (NHC) and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) at NOAA Headquarters just outside of Washington, D.C. During an 11 a.m. demonstration, advocates will demand that NOAA stop covering up the growing scientific link between severe hurricanes and global warming while insisting on real solutions to the problem of global warming.
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=66589

Who will be the next of this witch-hunt? Ah well, at least the hunters are only calling for heads to roll, and not for a return to burning at the stake….

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