Comments on: The Future of Climate Policy Debates http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4016 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Benny Peiser http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4016&cpage=1#comment-7063 Benny Peiser Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:07:29 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4016#comment-7063 Now here's a great idea: Why don't we offer members of the denial industry and airline executives a humane last will: you can choose between death by hanging after Nuremberg-style trials or drowning by Monbiot without a trial. Not that we wish to intimidate anyone... Now here’s a great idea: Why don’t we offer members of the denial industry and airline executives a humane last will: you can choose between death by hanging after Nuremberg-style trials or drowning by Monbiot without a trial. Not that we wish to intimidate anyone…

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By: Steve Hemphill http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4016&cpage=1#comment-7062 Steve Hemphill Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:23:18 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4016#comment-7062 Tom - You still miss my point. As Al Gore admitted to George Stephanopolous, "they just don't know" Just because they've been "waiting in vain" doesn't mean we should short circuit the science. You have yet to show it's a "commons problem." Tom -

You still miss my point. As Al Gore admitted to George Stephanopolous, “they just don’t know”

Just because they’ve been “waiting in vain” doesn’t mean we should short circuit the science. You have yet to show it’s a “commons problem.”

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By: TokyoTom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4016&cpage=1#comment-7061 TokyoTom Thu, 07 Dec 2006 07:28:57 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4016#comment-7061 Dan: "So far as I know no Senator has attempted to raise awareness of the 'Global Warming' problem, either in public or in the Senate. Point me to a speech in which any candidate mentioned the K-word before the 2006 elections. Point me to any speech by any House/Senate office holder or candidate made since July 1997 in which the K-word is uttered. In 1997 they said, basically, 'The Senate thinks that we (the USA) are not the problem." Members of the US House and Senate have simply shown no leadership in supporting programs that address the 'Global Warming' problem." Dan, the problem is that you are remarkably uninformed and want others to do your homework for you. - Don't you remember that many of the candidates in 2000 made promises to control climate change - Bush included, and that McCain and Lieberman have been pushing for climate change policies since before that time? - Don't you recall that in 2003, despite heavy pressure from the Administration, the US Senate brought to a vote and strongly supported (43 to 55) the McCain-Lieberman Climate Stewardship Act, which would have capped carbon dioxide emissions from industries and created an emissions-trading system? - Aren't you aware that last year the US Senate approved (54-43 ) a Sense of the Senate resolution (sponsored by Bingaman and co-sponsored by Domenici, Specter, Alexander, Cantwell, Lieberman, Lautenberg, McCain, Jeffords, Kerry, Snowe, Collins and Boxer) calling for a mandatory GHG control program (again, despite heavy pressure from the Administration)? http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=234715&Month=6&Year=2005&Party=0 - Didn't you know that the House Appropriations Committee approved an identical resoultion this year? http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=234960&Month=5&Year=2006&Party=0 - Weren't you aware that the Senate has held hearing specifically targetted towards designing GHG control legislation? The written testimony and hearing transcripts include detailed commentary from a wide section of US industry and make fascinating reading. Summaries are avialbel here: Summary of hearings (June 22nd, 2006): http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=235005&Month=6&Year=2006&Party=1 April 4, 2006 Climate Conference submissions: http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Conferences.Detail&Event_id=4&Month=4&Year=2006 Panel speakers and agenda: http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=234922&Month=4&Year=2006&Party=0 Hearings transcript: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_senate_hearings&docid=f:28095.wais http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_senate_hearings&docid=f:28095.pdf - Were you aware that the US remains a party to the UNFCCC and that Congress has enacted a number of statutory provisions targeted at climate change, including the Energy Policy Act of 1992 and the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments, which establish a national carbon dioxide monitoring system, authorize the DOE to collect, analyze and report information on climate change, and create a Director of Climate Change? I wouldn't say that the Congress has shown much leadership on any issue over the past decade or so, but clearly that have expressed a desire to move ahead on climate change, despite opposition during the Bush administration. I hope the above information helps you to get a more accurate view of where the Congress stood on climate change issues prior to the mid-term elections. Dan:

“So far as I know no Senator has attempted to raise awareness of the ‘Global Warming’ problem, either in public or in the Senate. Point me to a speech in which any candidate mentioned the K-word before the 2006 elections. Point me to any speech by any House/Senate office holder or candidate made since July 1997 in which the K-word is uttered. In 1997 they said, basically, ‘The Senate thinks that we (the USA) are not the problem.”

Members of the US House and Senate have simply shown no leadership in supporting programs that address the ‘Global Warming’ problem.”

Dan, the problem is that you are remarkably uninformed and want others to do your homework for you.

- Don’t you remember that many of the candidates in 2000 made promises to control climate change – Bush included, and that McCain and Lieberman have been pushing for climate change policies since before that time?

- Don’t you recall that in 2003, despite heavy pressure from the Administration, the US Senate brought to a vote and strongly supported (43 to 55) the McCain-Lieberman Climate Stewardship Act, which would have capped carbon dioxide emissions from industries and created an emissions-trading system?

- Aren’t you aware that last year the US Senate approved (54-43 ) a Sense of the Senate resolution (sponsored by Bingaman and co-sponsored by Domenici, Specter, Alexander, Cantwell, Lieberman, Lautenberg, McCain, Jeffords, Kerry, Snowe, Collins and Boxer) calling for a mandatory GHG control program (again, despite heavy pressure from the Administration)? http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=234715&Month=6&Year=2005&Party=0

- Didn’t you know that the House Appropriations Committee approved an identical resoultion this year? http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=234960&Month=5&Year=2006&Party=0

- Weren’t you aware that the Senate has held hearing specifically targetted towards designing GHG control legislation? The written testimony and hearing transcripts include detailed commentary from a wide section of US industry and make fascinating reading. Summaries are avialbel here:

Summary of hearings (June 22nd, 2006):
http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=235005&Month=6&Year=2006&Party=1

April 4, 2006 Climate Conference submissions:
http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Conferences.Detail&Event_id=4&Month=4&Year=2006

Panel speakers and agenda:
http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=234922&Month=4&Year=2006&Party=0

Hearings transcript:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_senate_hearings&docid=f:28095.wais
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_senate_hearings&docid=f:28095.pdf

- Were you aware that the US remains a party to the UNFCCC and that Congress has enacted a number of statutory provisions targeted at climate change, including the Energy Policy Act of 1992 and the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments, which establish a national carbon dioxide monitoring system, authorize the DOE to collect,
analyze and report information on climate change, and create a Director of Climate Change?

I wouldn’t say that the Congress has shown much leadership on any issue over the past decade or so, but clearly that have expressed a desire to move ahead on climate change, despite opposition during the Bush administration.

I hope the above information helps you to get a more accurate view of where the Congress stood on climate change issues prior to the mid-term elections.

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By: TokyoTom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4016&cpage=1#comment-7060 TokyoTom Thu, 07 Dec 2006 05:47:02 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4016#comment-7060 Steve, as I noted I agree that the phenomenon affects both sides. With respect to the "global warming feedwagon", I am quite aware that there are indistrial groups that will make money from investing in and selling more efficient and lower-carbon technologies that support climate change regulation. Yes, that's rent-seeking. But they have been waiting in vain for many decades now. Don't forget to shed your light on what groups have actually been pigging out at the public trough during the past few years of special interest orgy at public expense. And don't forget that failing to fix a commons problem is essentially a subsidy to present consumption, and that those who are favored by present consumption have engaged in very sophisticated political strategies to protect that subsidy. Regards, Tom Steve, as I noted I agree that the phenomenon affects both sides.

With respect to the “global warming feedwagon”, I am quite aware that there are indistrial groups that will make money from investing in and selling more efficient and lower-carbon technologies that support climate change regulation. Yes, that’s rent-seeking. But they have been waiting in vain for many decades now.

Don’t forget to shed your light on what groups have actually been pigging out at the public trough during the past few years of special interest orgy at public expense. And don’t forget that failing to fix a commons problem is essentially a subsidy to present consumption, and that those who are favored by present consumption have engaged in very sophisticated political strategies to protect that subsidy.

Regards,

Tom

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By: TokyoTom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4016&cpage=1#comment-7059 TokyoTom Thu, 07 Dec 2006 05:39:33 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4016#comment-7059 Roger, it looks like my memory was not serving me correctly. After looking back, I can see that it was only Benny who was arguing that Roberts and Monbiot, in castigating the "denial industry", were also targeting scientists and others who simply disagreed. Thanks for the correction. Roger, it looks like my memory was not serving me correctly. After looking back, I can see that it was only Benny who was arguing that Roberts and Monbiot, in castigating the “denial industry”, were also targeting scientists and others who simply disagreed. Thanks for the correction.

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By: Dan Hughes http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4016&cpage=1#comment-7058 Dan Hughes Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:41:55 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4016#comment-7058 Well Tokyo let's see. So far as I know no Senator has attempted to raise awareness of the 'Global Warming' problem, either in public or in the Senate. Point me to a speech in which any candidate mentioned the K-word before the 2006 elections. Point me to any speech by any House/Senate office holder or candidate made since July 1997 in which the K-word is uttered. In 1997 they said, basically, 'The Senate thinks that we (the USA) are not the problem." In 2006 they have basically threatened ExxonMobile and other private companies and said, 'You are the problem. Fix it or you will incur the full force of the Senate.' Members of the US House and Senate have simply shown no leadership in supporting programs that address the 'Global Warming' problem. Maybe it's not inconsistency, maybe it's projection and/or denial of personal responsibility. Well Tokyo let’s see.

So far as I know no Senator has attempted to raise awareness of the ‘Global Warming’ problem, either in public or in the Senate. Point me to a speech in which any candidate mentioned the K-word before the 2006 elections. Point me to any speech by any House/Senate office holder or candidate made since July 1997 in which the K-word is uttered. In 1997 they said, basically, ‘The Senate thinks that we (the USA) are not the problem.” In 2006 they have basically threatened ExxonMobile and other private companies and said, ‘You are the problem. Fix it or you will incur the full force of the Senate.’

Members of the US House and Senate have simply shown no leadership in supporting programs that address the ‘Global Warming’ problem.

Maybe it’s not inconsistency, maybe it’s projection and/or denial of personal responsibility.

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By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4016&cpage=1#comment-7057 Roger Pielke, Jr. Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:02:03 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4016#comment-7057 Tom- Thanks for your comment. Please do note that you have invented my views on Dave Roberts, as I said no such thing. Tom- Thanks for your comment. Please do note that you have invented my views on Dave Roberts, as I said no such thing.

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By: Steve Hemphill http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4016&cpage=1#comment-7056 Steve Hemphill Wed, 06 Dec 2006 13:52:07 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4016#comment-7056 Tom - The fundamentalists are among the alarmists as well. There are basically two groups. One is the classic "You don't get it" and the other is of those lined up at the global warming feedwagon. Further, the second group is again divided into those overtly egging the first group on and those who aren't (overtly, that is). Tom -

The fundamentalists are among the alarmists as well. There are basically two groups. One is the classic “You don’t get it” and the other is of those lined up at the global warming feedwagon. Further, the second group is again divided into those overtly egging the first group on and those who aren’t (overtly, that is).

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By: TokyoTom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4016&cpage=1#comment-7055 TokyoTom Wed, 06 Dec 2006 13:45:16 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4016#comment-7055 Dan, I`m not sure I understand the relevance of the 1997 sense of the Senate resolution, but aren`t you leaving out something important? The resolution didn`t say no to Kyoto, which hadn`t been finalized yet, it said that the Senate would oppose IF the accord did not contain binding commitments by China and India as well. US presidents have simply shown no leadership in negotiating a treaty that would be acceptable to the Senate; this does not imply any inconsistency on the parts of Rockefeller and Snowe. Dan, I`m not sure I understand the relevance of the 1997 sense of the Senate resolution, but aren`t you leaving out something important? The resolution didn`t say no to Kyoto, which hadn`t been finalized yet, it said that the Senate would oppose IF the accord did not contain binding commitments by China and India as well. US presidents have simply shown no leadership in negotiating a treaty that would be acceptable to the Senate; this does not imply any inconsistency on the parts of Rockefeller and Snowe.

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By: TokyoTom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=4016&cpage=1#comment-7054 TokyoTom Wed, 06 Dec 2006 13:39:06 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=4016#comment-7054 Roger, I`m sure you realize the cite to Hansen is in appropos; he`s using a very venerable metaphor to describe the difficulties that we have changing our minds. Monbiot sounds a little like Ann Coulter and other Bush supporters over the past five years, doesn`t he? I think you`re right this time, but you may recall how you and Benny both misinterpreted his screed over the "skeptics industry" (the Dave Roberts/Gristmill post on Nuremberg trials) as referring to ALL who oppose climate change action. Roger, I`m sure you realize the cite to Hansen is in appropos; he`s using a very venerable metaphor to describe the difficulties that we have changing our minds.

Monbiot sounds a little like Ann Coulter and other Bush supporters over the past five years, doesn`t he? I think you`re right this time, but you may recall how you and Benny both misinterpreted his screed over the “skeptics industry” (the Dave Roberts/Gristmill post on Nuremberg trials) as referring to ALL who oppose climate change action.

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