Comments on: A request – 100 MPG Cars? http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: jae http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083&cpage=1#comment-13122 jae Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:45:18 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083#comment-13122 The trial lawyers will probably make it impossible for us to ever get a decent 100-mpg car. The trial lawyers will probably make it impossible for us to ever get a decent 100-mpg car.

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By: bverheggen http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083&cpage=1#comment-13121 bverheggen Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:32:56 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083#comment-13121 It is worth noting that the average mileage of cars hasn't improved in decades, but that is mostly due to there not being an incentive. I blogged about past and future cars here: http://ourchangingclimate.wordpress.com/2008/10/02/the-car-of-past/ Here's an example of a ICE car which gets 100 mpg (still in an experimental phase I believe): http://evolution.loremo.com/content/view/97/196/lang,en/ On a test bench you can get still much better than that, but stop and go and going uphill will start to be difficult: the opel P1 experimental car got >350 mpg. Needless to say, it won't have the same features as the cars you generally see on the road. But it may show that large improvements over today's mileage are possible. Bart It is worth noting that the average mileage of cars hasn’t improved in decades, but that is mostly due to there not being an incentive.

I blogged about past and future cars here: http://ourchangingclimate.wordpress.com/2008/10/02/the-car-of-past/

Here’s an example of a ICE car which gets 100 mpg (still in an experimental phase I believe):
http://evolution.loremo.com/content/view/97/196/lang,en/

On a test bench you can get still much better than that, but stop and go and going uphill will start to be difficult: the opel P1 experimental car got >350 mpg. Needless to say, it won’t have the same features as the cars you generally see on the road. But it may show that large improvements over today’s mileage are possible.

Bart

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By: maxlybbert http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083&cpage=1#comment-13119 maxlybbert Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:52:36 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083#comment-13119 If the question is "will we *ever* see a 100 mpg car with the kind of features current cars have?" I would say the answer is "yes, especially if you count accounting gimmicks like plug-in hybrids" (the plug-in hybrid doesn't get all of its energy from gasoline, so it's easily possible that one could go more than 100 miles on a gallon of gas if it starts with a fully-charged battery). If the question is "will we see such cars in the next five years?" I would have to say "don't bet on it." If the question is “will we *ever* see a 100 mpg car with the kind of features current cars have?” I would say the answer is “yes, especially if you count accounting gimmicks like plug-in hybrids” (the plug-in hybrid doesn’t get all of its energy from gasoline, so it’s easily possible that one could go more than 100 miles on a gallon of gas if it starts with a fully-charged battery).

If the question is “will we see such cars in the next five years?” I would have to say “don’t bet on it.”

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By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083&cpage=1#comment-13118 Mark Bahner Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:12:28 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083#comment-13118 "The problem with diesel environmentaly seen however is in its small particles (cancer), sulfur (acidification) and NOx (lungs and acidification)." This is also the issue of small particles (global warming). Diesels emit much more black carbon (soot) per unit distance traveled than gasoline engines. The IPCC may minimize black carbon as a source of global warming (and also as a source of melting ice in the Arctic), but that doesn't mean the IPCC is correct: http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/Releases/?releaseID=891 In fact, it has been argued that diesels are greater contributors to global warming than gasoline engines (at least over the first decade after emissions): http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/diesel_cars_may_promote_more_global_warming_than_gasoline_cars P.S. Over the next 2-3 decades, black carbon emissions from diesel engines in Europe should decrease dramatically (by as much as 90 percent). Unlike with CO2, any climate impacts (e.g. on Arctic ice melt rates) should be closely timed to the reductions in emissions; there will be no need to wait many decades to see if there is an effect, as with reductions in CO2 emissions. “The problem with diesel environmentaly seen however is in its small particles (cancer), sulfur (acidification) and NOx (lungs and acidification).”

This is also the issue of small particles (global warming). Diesels emit much more black carbon (soot) per unit distance traveled than gasoline engines.

The IPCC may minimize black carbon as a source of global warming (and also as a source of melting ice in the Arctic), but that doesn’t mean the IPCC is correct:

http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/Releases/?releaseID=891

In fact, it has been argued that diesels are greater contributors to global warming than gasoline engines (at least over the first decade after emissions):

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/diesel_cars_may_promote_more_global_warming_than_gasoline_cars

P.S. Over the next 2-3 decades, black carbon emissions from diesel engines in Europe should decrease dramatically (by as much as 90 percent). Unlike with CO2, any climate impacts (e.g. on Arctic ice melt rates) should be closely timed to the reductions in emissions; there will be no need to wait many decades to see if there is an effect, as with reductions in CO2 emissions.

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By: Jon Frum http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083&cpage=1#comment-13117 Jon Frum Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:59:47 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083#comment-13117 It's good to see Armin mention diesel pollution in he second post. We don't have many diesel cars in the US becuase of restrictive air pollution legislation. Europeans have been happy to kill a certain small fraction of their population for the pleasure of using diesel fuel. As pointed out above, 100 mpg is not about cruising efficiency, it's about starting and stopping losses. A car is far more fuel efficient cruising at 60 mph on the highway than averaging 15-20 mpg in stop and go traffic. It’s good to see Armin mention diesel pollution in he second post. We don’t have many diesel cars in the US becuase of restrictive air pollution legislation. Europeans have been happy to kill a certain small fraction of their population for the pleasure of using diesel fuel.

As pointed out above, 100 mpg is not about cruising efficiency, it’s about starting and stopping losses. A car is far more fuel efficient cruising at 60 mph on the highway than averaging 15-20 mpg in stop and go traffic.

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By: Armin http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083&cpage=1#comment-13116 Armin Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:27:55 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083#comment-13116 David, European car safety features are usually a bit ahead on the US due to regulations. Note, before all you Americans get all patriotic on me :-) - this is about brands and models, not companies. Due to various market-conditions the US markets favours things like leather seats, automatic and stronger engines. The Europe market has more technology on-board per car. I work for an automotive company and new features are on average sometimes even two years earlier available in mainstream models in Europe than the US and Japan. Again, brands and models not companies, as US companies like Ford en GM (e.g. Opel in Europe) do the same thing. Although this doesn't limit itself to, this also included safety technology. This doesn't offset however weight-wise the difference in size. I must admit, I'd prefer a bigger car with less electronics and more leather though :-) And diesel engines are generally more heavy, as is - as Mark explained - but even more due to the the turbo or compressor. Also more expensive in buying price. But diesel is inherently more efficient by physics (diesel vs otto efficiency) and by energy per liter/gallon. It will make up for that. The problem with diesel environmentaly seen however is in its small particles (cancer), sulfur (acidification) and NOx (lungs and acidification). You need high grade diesel, and a NOx-kat and small particle filter to get the same cleanness as a modern petrol engine. See e.e. Mercedes E class BlueTec. Sofar California is the only place where these things are mandatory (indirectely by emision regulations). In diesel loving Europe this will in effect only happen when the EU euro 6 regulations kick in. This will up the price of dieselcars ... So CO2 wise diesel is a good thing to look at, but price wise and in terms of other emisions it has its own set of problems. We tend to define environment to much a CO2 today and forget about the rest. Personally I rather have CO2 emmisons in my backyard than any of the other nasty stuff ... David, European car safety features are usually a bit ahead on the US due to regulations. Note, before all you Americans get all patriotic on me :-) – this is about brands and models, not companies. Due to various market-conditions the US markets favours things like leather seats, automatic and stronger engines. The Europe market has more technology on-board per car. I work for an automotive company and new features are on average sometimes even two years earlier available in mainstream models in Europe than the US and Japan. Again, brands and models not companies, as US companies like Ford en GM (e.g. Opel in Europe) do the same thing. Although this doesn’t limit itself to, this also included safety technology. This doesn’t offset however weight-wise the difference in size.

I must admit, I’d prefer a bigger car with less electronics and more leather though :-)

And diesel engines are generally more heavy, as is – as Mark explained – but even more due to the the turbo or compressor. Also more expensive in buying price. But diesel is inherently more efficient by physics (diesel vs otto efficiency) and by energy per liter/gallon. It will make up for that.

The problem with diesel environmentaly seen however is in its small particles (cancer), sulfur (acidification) and NOx (lungs and acidification). You need high grade diesel, and a NOx-kat and small particle filter to get the same cleanness as a modern petrol engine. See e.e. Mercedes E class BlueTec. Sofar California is the only place where these things are mandatory (indirectely by emision regulations). In diesel loving Europe this will in effect only happen when the EU euro 6 regulations kick in. This will up the price of dieselcars …

So CO2 wise diesel is a good thing to look at, but price wise and in terms of other emisions it has its own set of problems. We tend to define environment to much a CO2 today and forget about the rest. Personally I rather have CO2 emmisons in my backyard than any of the other nasty stuff …

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By: jae http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083&cpage=1#comment-13114 jae Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:37:35 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083#comment-13114 The real gains are to be made in phasing out autos that only give 20 mpg or less. You get the same percentage increase in efficiency (50 %) in going from 20mpg to 30mpg as you do in going from 30 to 60. And we don't need Big Brother BO to get this done; the free market has been doing this very well. The real gains are to be made in phasing out autos that only give 20 mpg or less. You get the same percentage increase in efficiency (50 %) in going from 20mpg to 30mpg as you do in going from 30 to 60. And we don’t need Big Brother BO to get this done; the free market has been doing this very well.

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By: michel http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083&cpage=1#comment-13112 michel Wed, 25 Mar 2009 08:18:08 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083#comment-13112 Heating, air conditioning, size of vehicle. Lifestyle. No, you will never get 100mpg out of a large car driven in Phoenix at a comfortable temperature. Still less if it is stop start, but even if its being driven at 50 or 60 mph on a highway. You will get it out of a small, and this means Peugot/Citroen 105 or 205 sized, car, no air conditioning, driven mostly at constant speeds under 50. If you simultaneously with the takeup of such vehicles reduce the average mileage of them, you can make a big difference to total energy consumption on transport. You have to do both: improve mileage, and also reduce miles driven. Hybrids are just feelgoodery. They do not in fact, in driving which is typical of what people do, deliver any better mileage than economical non-hybrids. Specifically, smaller conventional cars always deliver better mileage than larger hybrids. What does this tell you? You really want to reduce gas consumption in the US, restructure the towns and suburbs so people do not have to drive fast and carry lots of shopping. Restructure them around public transport and local services and routes that are safe to walk or bike. You cannot maintain existing lifestyles of shopping, working and living, and existing layouts of roads houses and communities, and existing modes of transport, and still make large reductions in transport fuel consumption. People are going to have to travel by muscle power for shorter distances, and by public transport for longer ones, and that means restructuring of the physical environment. Or not doing it. Heating, air conditioning, size of vehicle. Lifestyle.

No, you will never get 100mpg out of a large car driven in Phoenix at a comfortable temperature. Still less if it is stop start, but even if its being driven at 50 or 60 mph on a highway.

You will get it out of a small, and this means Peugot/Citroen 105 or 205 sized, car, no air conditioning, driven mostly at constant speeds under 50.

If you simultaneously with the takeup of such vehicles reduce the average mileage of them, you can make a big difference to total energy consumption on transport. You have to do both: improve mileage, and also reduce miles driven.

Hybrids are just feelgoodery. They do not in fact, in driving which is typical of what people do, deliver any better mileage than economical non-hybrids. Specifically, smaller conventional cars always deliver better mileage than larger hybrids.

What does this tell you? You really want to reduce gas consumption in the US, restructure the towns and suburbs so people do not have to drive fast and carry lots of shopping. Restructure them around public transport and local services and routes that are safe to walk or bike.

You cannot maintain existing lifestyles of shopping, working and living, and existing layouts of roads houses and communities, and existing modes of transport, and still make large reductions in transport fuel consumption. People are going to have to travel by muscle power for shorter distances, and by public transport for longer ones, and that means restructuring of the physical environment.

Or not doing it.

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By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083&cpage=1#comment-13110 Mark Bahner Wed, 25 Mar 2009 02:06:55 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083#comment-13110 "Are diesel engines generally lighter, even with the turbo or compressor?" Diesel engines have higher compression ratios. That means they have to have more muscular connecting rods, crankshafts, and other engine parts. So I'd expect that a diesel of equal displacement to a gasoline engine would be somewhat heavier. “Are diesel engines generally lighter, even with the turbo or compressor?”

Diesel engines have higher compression ratios. That means they have to have more muscular connecting rods, crankshafts, and other engine parts. So I’d expect that a diesel of equal displacement to a gasoline engine would be somewhat heavier.

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By: David Bruggeman http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083&cpage=1#comment-13107 David Bruggeman Tue, 24 Mar 2009 23:46:59 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5083#comment-13107 I have a couple of questions based on comments so far. Are European car safety features on par with U.S safety features? If so, I think the weight argument is undercut, if just a bit. Are diesel engines generally lighter, even with the turbo or compressor? I have a couple of questions based on comments so far.

Are European car safety features on par with U.S safety features? If so, I think the weight argument is undercut, if just a bit.

Are diesel engines generally lighter, even with the turbo or compressor?

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