Comments on: A Few Comments on Today’s Climate Hearing http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3538 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Steve Bloom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3538&cpage=1#comment-1400 Steve Bloom Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:57:56 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3538#comment-1400 Thanks for your response, Roger, and for keeping this thought-provoking site going. I've learned a lot here. One additional thought I should add to this discussion is that a reason the Club at least (which I assume you know is far and away the largest broad-based grassroots environmental group in the country, with a membership of 800,000 and hundreds of active local subdivisions) has been reticent about making a major commitment is because global warming is a poor fit for national party politics; i.e., it won't be very helpful as a means of rallying the troops to the Democratic Party every two and four years if it becomes apparent that the Dems aren't much better than the Reps in terms of taking substantial action on global warming. This is a big part of the reason for the Club's emphasis on the weak step of raising CAFE standards. Finally, this new CA poll result (appended below) is interesting in a variety of ways, one of which is the high esteem in which scientists are held. Public Policy Institute of California Poll on the Environment - July 2005: Publication link at: http://www.ppic.org/main/publication.asp?i=623 From the Press Release: Special Survey On The Environment: Whose World Is It Anyway? Californians Say State Should Take Lead On Global Warming Concern Over Air Pollution Trumps Economic, Financial Considerations Little Support for Schwarzenegger, Bush on Environmental Issues SAN FRANCISCO, California, July 21, 2005 - Driven by concerns about how global warming will degrade their quality of life and by a profound lack of confidence in the environmental and energy tilt of the federal government, Californians want the state to act on its own to address the problem, according to a new survey released today by the Public Policy Institute of California (PPIC) with funding from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. For most Californians, global warming is a real or looming phenomenon: 86 percent believe it will affect current or future generations, and 57 percent believe the effects are already being felt. Three in four (75%) say the effects of global warming on the state's economy and quality of life will be very or somewhat serious. And large majorities of state residents say they are at least somewhat concerned about the possible impacts of global warming, including increased air pollution (86%), more severe droughts (78%), greater coastal erosion (67%), and increased flooding (60%). Of those who believe global warming will affect current or future generations, 62 percent identify human activities as the primary cause; only 22 percent say naturally occurring increases in temperature are responsible. So what do Californians want to do about it? A majority (54%) express a preference for their state government to develop its own policies, apart from the federal government, to address the issue of global warming. Some current state efforts get broad public support: 77 percent favor the state law requiring automakers to further reduce the emissions of greenhouse gases from new cars in California, beginning in 2009. Support for this measure has remained steady since June 2002. 69 percent support the greenhouse gas (GHG) emission targets recently established by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, which aim to reduce GHG emissions from cars, power plants, and industry by more than 80 percent over the next 50 years. Why are Californians more inclined to see the state, rather than the federal government, as a potential problem-solver? "It's a question of trust," says PPIC statewide survey director Mark Baldassare. "Californians do not have much faith in government in general, but when it comes to environmental and energy issues, they clearly see the state as more adequately representing their interests." Indeed, more residents trust the state government (52%) than the federal government (43%) to provide correct information about the condition of the environment - although both receive considerably less public trust than do scientists and researchers at universities (78%) and environmental organizations (64%). The state is also favored over the federal government when it comes to protecting the quality of the environment; however, only about one in three Californians trusts the state government (37%) or the federal government (32%) to do what is right just about always or most of the time. Bush, Schwarzenegger Feel the Heat On a range of environmental and energy issues, state residents are at odds with the Bush administration and federal priorities. This disconnect has done little to help performance ratings for President George W. Bush: Overall, four in 10 California adults (38%) say they approve of President Bush's performance in office. Fewer state residents approve of his handling of environmental (32%) and energy (29%) issues, and majorities disapprove of his performance in both areas (54% environment, 53% energy). The differences between the energy priorities of the federal government (oil drilling and nuclear power) and those of state residents (fuel efficiency) are illuminating: A majority of state residents (56%) oppose new oil drilling in federally-protected areas such as the Alaskan wilderness. On a related note, Californians (53%) also remain opposed to allowing more oil drilling off the California coast. Most Californians (59%) oppose constructing new nuclear power plants in order to expand U.S. energy sources. While 33 percent of Californians support building more nuclear power plants, only 20 percent would still support the plan if a plant were built within 50 miles of their home. Similarly, although 48 percent of state residents favor the construction of liquefied natural gas terminals, only 29 percent would still support the plan if a facility were located within 50 miles of their home. 83 percent of Californians favor requiring automakers to significantly improve the fuel efficiency of cars - and 73 percent support the policy even if it increases the cost of buying a new car. Unlike President Bush, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has been quick to show that he is close to the hearts and minds of Californians when it comes to environmental and energy issues. A solid majority of residents (55%) approve of his plan to encourage the development of hydrogen fuel cell technology and most (76%) endorse his effort to provide incentives for the use of solar energy in homes and businesses. Have these efforts paid off for the governor? Overall, his approval rating is at a low point (34%), down from 40 percent in May. And Californians are divided when it comes to his handling of environmental issues, with 32 percent of residents saying they approve and 35 percent saying they disapprove. "Schwarzenegger's problem is more global and has little to do with his environmental record," says Baldassare. In the broader context, 51 percent of Californians say the state is headed in the wrong direction and 54 percent oppose holding a special election in November. Lots of Interest, Less Involvement Among Blacks, Latinos Most Californians (86%) - including strong majorities of whites, Latinos, blacks, and Asians - say they are interested in news and information about environmental issues. However, whites are more likely to be personally involved in environmental organizations or related activities than are other racial/ethnic groups, particularly Latinos and blacks. For example, 14 percent of whites say they have volunteered their time in the past year to work on an environmental issue, compared to 8 percent of Latinos and blacks. Media Gets Low Marks When residents are asked to assess the trustworthiness of five entities in providing correct information about the environment, scientists and researchers at universities (78%) receive the most trust, while the news media get the least (39%). Thanks for your response, Roger, and for keeping this thought-provoking site going. I’ve learned a lot here. One additional thought I should add to this discussion is that a reason the Club at least (which I assume you know is far and away the largest broad-based grassroots environmental group in the country, with a membership of 800,000 and hundreds of active local subdivisions) has been reticent about making a major commitment is because global warming is a poor fit for national party politics; i.e., it won’t be very helpful as a means of rallying the troops to the Democratic Party every two and four years if it becomes apparent that the Dems aren’t much better than the Reps in terms of taking substantial action on global warming. This is a big part of the reason for the Club’s emphasis on the weak step of raising CAFE standards. Finally, this new CA poll result (appended below) is interesting in a variety of ways, one of which is the high esteem in which scientists are held.

Public Policy Institute of California Poll on the Environment – July
2005:
Publication link at:
http://www.ppic.org/main/publication.asp?i=623
From the Press Release:
Special Survey On The Environment: Whose World Is It Anyway?
Californians Say State Should Take Lead On Global Warming

Concern Over Air Pollution Trumps Economic, Financial Considerations
Little Support for Schwarzenegger, Bush on Environmental Issues

SAN FRANCISCO, California, July 21, 2005 – Driven by concerns about how
global warming will degrade their quality of life and by a profound lack
of confidence in the environmental and energy tilt of the federal
government, Californians want the state to act on its own to address the
problem, according to a new survey released today by the Public Policy
Institute of California (PPIC) with funding from the William and Flora
Hewlett Foundation.

For most Californians, global warming is a real or looming phenomenon:
86 percent believe it will affect current or future generations, and 57
percent believe the effects are already being felt. Three in four (75%)
say the effects of global warming on the state’s economy and quality of
life will be very or somewhat serious. And large majorities of state
residents say they are at least somewhat concerned about the possible
impacts of global warming, including increased air pollution (86%), more
severe droughts (78%), greater coastal erosion (67%), and increased
flooding (60%).

Of those who believe global warming will affect current or future
generations, 62 percent identify human activities as the primary cause;
only 22 percent say naturally occurring increases in temperature are
responsible. So what do Californians want to do about it? A majority
(54%) express a preference for their state government to develop its own
policies, apart from the federal government, to address the issue of
global warming. Some current state efforts get broad public support:
77 percent favor the state law requiring automakers to further reduce
the emissions of greenhouse gases from new cars in California, beginning
in 2009. Support for this measure has remained steady since June 2002.

69 percent support the greenhouse gas (GHG) emission targets recently
established by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, which aim to reduce GHG
emissions from cars, power plants, and industry by more than 80 percent
over the next 50 years.
Why are Californians more inclined to see the state, rather than the
federal government, as a potential problem-solver? “It’s a question of
trust,” says PPIC statewide survey director Mark Baldassare.
“Californians do not have much faith in government in general, but when
it comes to environmental and energy issues, they clearly see the state
as more adequately representing their interests.”

Indeed, more residents trust the state government (52%) than the federal
government (43%) to provide correct information about the condition of
the environment – although both receive considerably less public trust
than do scientists and researchers at universities (78%) and
environmental organizations (64%). The state is also favored over the
federal government when it comes to protecting the quality of the
environment; however, only about one in three Californians trusts the
state government (37%) or the federal government (32%) to do what is
right just about always or most of the time.

Bush, Schwarzenegger Feel the Heat

On a range of environmental and energy issues, state residents are at
odds with the Bush administration and federal priorities. This
disconnect has done little to help performance ratings for President
George W. Bush: Overall, four in 10 California adults (38%) say they
approve of President Bush’s performance in office. Fewer state residents
approve of his handling of environmental (32%) and energy (29%) issues,
and majorities disapprove of his performance in both areas (54%
environment, 53% energy). The differences between the energy priorities
of the federal government (oil drilling and nuclear power) and those of
state residents (fuel efficiency) are illuminating:

A majority of state residents (56%) oppose new oil drilling in
federally-protected areas such as the Alaskan wilderness. On a related
note, Californians (53%) also remain opposed to allowing more oil
drilling off the California coast.

Most Californians (59%) oppose constructing new nuclear power plants in
order to expand U.S. energy sources. While 33 percent of Californians
support building more nuclear power plants, only 20 percent would still
support the plan if a plant were built within 50 miles of their home.
Similarly, although 48 percent of state residents favor the construction
of liquefied natural gas terminals, only 29 percent would still support
the plan if a facility were located within 50 miles of their home.
83 percent of Californians favor requiring automakers to significantly
improve the fuel efficiency of cars – and 73 percent support the policy
even if it increases the cost of buying a new car.

Unlike President Bush, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has been quick to
show that he is close to the hearts and minds of Californians when it
comes to environmental and energy issues. A solid majority of residents
(55%) approve of his plan to encourage the development of hydrogen fuel
cell technology and most (76%) endorse his effort to provide incentives
for the use of solar energy in homes and businesses.

Have these efforts paid off for the governor? Overall, his approval
rating is at a low point (34%), down from 40 percent in May. And
Californians are divided when it comes to his handling of environmental
issues, with 32 percent of residents saying they approve and 35 percent
saying they disapprove. “Schwarzenegger’s problem is more global and has
little to do with his environmental record,” says Baldassare. In the
broader context, 51 percent of Californians say the state is headed in
the wrong direction and 54 percent oppose holding a special election in
November.
Lots of Interest, Less Involvement Among Blacks, Latinos
Most Californians (86%) – including strong majorities of whites,
Latinos, blacks, and Asians – say they are interested in news and
information about environmental issues. However, whites are more likely
to be personally involved in environmental organizations or related
activities than are other racial/ethnic groups, particularly Latinos and
blacks. For example, 14 percent of whites say they have volunteered
their time in the past year to work on an environmental issue, compared
to 8 percent of Latinos and blacks.
Media Gets Low Marks
When residents are asked to assess the trustworthiness of five entities
in providing correct information about the environment, scientists and
researchers at universities (78%) receive the most trust, while the news
media get the least (39%).

]]>
By: John Frankis http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3538&cpage=1#comment-1399 John Frankis Thu, 28 Jul 2005 01:22:06 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3538#comment-1399 Interesting article thanks Roger. For the medium term future, at least, realistic proposals to mitigate greenhouse warming surely must involve nuclear power along with renewable energy technologies. With the Cold War behind us we could safely deploy new, improved nuclear designs on a large scale, without running an unacceptable risk of weapons proliferation or nasty accidents, if not for the fact that we sadly can't trust the current leaders of the free world to get even little things right (things like chasing down and prosecuting those actually guilty of heinous crimes rather than settling for blowing up other people that we really don't like, because we can, and lying about it before, during and after). With decent leadership lots of wonderful things become conceivable; while waiting for that leadership to appear we can be addressing the less rational aspects of the by now widespread fear of nuclear power. Of course there are also good reasons to be very careful while increasing our reliance on nuclear power. The sooner we can put the irrational fears behind us - whether fears of a different, demonized, civilization that's out to git us, or overblown fears of the perils of peaceable nuclear power generation - the better we can get to grips with the really big and serious issue of our times: the damage we're doing to our own backyard. Interesting article thanks Roger.

For the medium term future, at least, realistic proposals to mitigate greenhouse warming surely must involve nuclear power along with renewable energy technologies. With the Cold War behind us we could safely deploy new, improved nuclear designs on a large scale, without running an unacceptable risk of weapons proliferation or nasty accidents, if not for the fact that we sadly can’t trust the current leaders of the free world to get even little things right (things like chasing down and prosecuting those actually guilty of heinous crimes rather than settling for blowing up other people that we really don’t like, because we can, and lying about it before, during and after).

With decent leadership lots of wonderful things become conceivable; while waiting for that leadership to appear we can be addressing the less rational aspects of the by now widespread fear of nuclear power. Of course there are also good reasons to be very careful while increasing our reliance on nuclear power. The sooner we can put the irrational fears behind us – whether fears of a different, demonized, civilization that’s out to git us, or overblown fears of the perils of peaceable nuclear power generation – the better we can get to grips with the really big and serious issue of our times: the damage we’re doing to our own backyard.

]]>
By: Roger Pielke Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3538&cpage=1#comment-1398 Roger Pielke Jr. Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:34:29 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3538#comment-1398 Steve- Thanks much for this comment (and other thoughtful comments on our blog). I appreciate your perspective. Clearly many of these organizations have played a prominent role in the issue for a long time, e.g., here is a Sierra Club statement on global warming from 2000 http://lists.sierraclub.org/SCRIPTS/WA.EXE?A2=ind0011&L=ce-scnews-releases&P=R664&D=1&H=1&O=D&T=0 Others have come to similar conclusions about the role of the environmental commuinity in the global warming debate. See for example the widely-circulated "Death of Environmentalism" essay: http://www.thebreakthrough.org/images/Death_of_Environmentalism.pdf But I hope that you are right, because it suggests that there is still an opportunity for positions to evolve in ways amenable to policy action and away from the pathologies we described in our 2000 paper. Steve- Thanks much for this comment (and other thoughtful comments on our blog). I appreciate your perspective. Clearly many of these organizations have played a prominent role in the issue for a long time, e.g., here is a Sierra Club statement on global warming from 2000

http://lists.sierraclub.org/SCRIPTS/WA.EXE?A2=ind0011&L=ce-scnews-releases&P=R664&D=1&H=1&O=D&T=0

Others have come to similar conclusions about the role of the environmental commuinity in the global warming debate. See for example the widely-circulated “Death of Environmentalism” essay:

http://www.thebreakthrough.org/images/Death_of_Environmentalism.pdf

But I hope that you are right, because it suggests that there is still an opportunity for positions to evolve in ways amenable to policy action and away from the pathologies we described in our 2000 paper.

]]>
By: Steve Bloom http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3538&cpage=1#comment-1397 Steve Bloom Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:07:25 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3538#comment-1397 Roger, I carefully read the 2000 article you linked to in your response to Murray above, and wanted to correct what appears to me to be a major misimpression you may still be laboring under five years later. You wrote (top of page 4) "(a) broad array of environmental groups and think thanks, including the Environmental Defense Fund, the Sierra Club, Greenpeace, the World Resources Institute, and the Union of Concerned Scientists, made reductions in carbon-dioxide emissions central to their agendas." The impression left is that the broad environmental movement had already made a meaningful priority out of the global warming issue, and that the effect of this had been less than salutory relative to getting meaningful action. It was not then and it is not now the case that such a priority exists within the broad movement. I don't blame you for thinking that it might be based on a) all the global warming talk in the relevant publications and b) the effort by the think tank end of the environmental movement (NRDC, EDF, UCS etc.) to leave the impression that where they have gone the grassroots part of the movement has followed. The largest relevant grassroots organization, the Sierra Club, is just now considering whether to make global warming a major organizational priority; the prospect of doing so wasn't even on the table in 2000. In any case, as of right now, in real terms (staff, money, volunteer time) the environmental movement is barely engaged. I believe that is in the process of changing, and I would add that the politicized scientists you deplore have been a big help in that regard. Roger, I carefully read the 2000 article you linked to in your response to Murray above, and wanted to correct what appears to me to be a major misimpression you may still be laboring under five years later. You wrote (top of page 4) “(a) broad array of environmental groups and think thanks, including the Environmental Defense Fund, the Sierra Club, Greenpeace, the World Resources Institute, and the Union of Concerned Scientists, made reductions in carbon-dioxide emissions central to their agendas.” The impression left is that the broad environmental movement had already made a meaningful priority out of the global warming issue, and that the effect of this had been less than salutory relative to getting meaningful action. It was not then and it is not now the case that such a priority exists within the broad movement. I don’t blame you for thinking that it might be based on a) all the global warming talk in the relevant publications and b) the effort by the think tank end of the environmental movement (NRDC, EDF, UCS etc.) to leave the impression that where they have gone the grassroots part of the movement has followed. The largest relevant grassroots organization, the Sierra Club, is just now considering whether to make global warming a major organizational priority; the prospect of doing so wasn’t even on the table in 2000. In any case, as of right now, in real terms (staff, money, volunteer time) the environmental movement is barely engaged. I believe that is in the process of changing, and I would add that the politicized scientists you deplore have been a big help in that regard.

]]>
By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3538&cpage=1#comment-1396 Mark Bahner Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:28:49 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3538#comment-1396 "Alexander said he didn’t see “any way in the world” to get a zero-emission society in one generation without using nuclear power, which he said accounts for 70 percent of non-emission power in the U.S. and 20 percent of total power." Actually, the problem of getting to a "zero emissions economy" in "a generation" is much more difficult than Lamar Alexander's figures indicate. Lamar Alexander's figures refer to to *electrical power* only, i.e., nuclear produces approximately 20 percent of the U.S.'s *electrical* power. So that doesn't include transportation energy usage (gasoline and diesel fuel) or natural gas used for residential and commercial heating, or oil and coal used for industrial processes. In terms of total energy (not just energy for electrical power), nuclear contributes only 8-10 percent of the U.S. consumption/production: http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/energy/stats_ctry/Stat1.html It's really surprising that anyone who wants to have any credibility as an analyst of the situation would say that the U.S. should aim for a "zero-carbon-emission society within a generation." It's completely unrealistic. And if my analyses are essentially correct (and I pretty sure they are, because environmental analyses are what I do for a living) going to "zero-carbon-emission society within a generation" would have virtually NO effect on global temperatures, as compared to the "business as usual" case of worldwide carbon emissions rising to 1.5 times the 1990 values in 2030, and declining to 0.7 times the 1990 value in 2100). By my calculations, if the *world* went to a "zero-carbon-emission society within a generation," the warming by 2100 would be about 0.9 degrees Celsius, versus 1.2 degrees Celsius for "business as usual." ("Business as usual" as I'VE correctly assessed it, and summarized above; not the "business as usual" nonsense in the IPCC Third Assessment Report.) “Alexander said he didn’t see “any way in the world” to get a zero-emission society in one generation without using nuclear power, which he said accounts for 70 percent of non-emission power in the U.S. and 20 percent of total power.”

Actually, the problem of getting to a “zero emissions economy” in “a generation” is much more difficult than Lamar Alexander’s figures indicate.

Lamar Alexander’s figures refer to to *electrical power* only, i.e., nuclear produces approximately 20 percent of the U.S.’s *electrical* power. So that doesn’t include transportation energy usage (gasoline and diesel fuel) or natural gas used for residential and commercial heating, or oil and coal used for industrial processes.

In terms of total energy (not just energy for electrical power), nuclear contributes only 8-10 percent of the U.S. consumption/production:

http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/energy/stats_ctry/Stat1.html

It’s really surprising that anyone who wants to have any credibility as an analyst of the situation would say that the U.S. should aim for a “zero-carbon-emission society within a generation.” It’s completely unrealistic.

And if my analyses are essentially correct (and I pretty sure they are, because environmental analyses are what I do for a living) going to “zero-carbon-emission society within a generation” would have virtually NO effect on global temperatures, as compared to the “business as usual” case of worldwide carbon emissions rising to 1.5 times the 1990 values in 2030, and declining to 0.7 times the 1990 value in 2100).

By my calculations, if the *world* went to a “zero-carbon-emission society within a generation,” the warming by 2100 would be about 0.9 degrees Celsius, versus 1.2 degrees Celsius for “business as usual.” (“Business as usual” as I’VE correctly assessed it, and summarized above; not the “business as usual” nonsense in the IPCC Third Assessment Report.)

]]>
By: Roger Pielke, Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3538&cpage=1#comment-1395 Roger Pielke, Jr. Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:10:04 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3538#comment-1395 An interesting news story covering the hearing: http://www.medillnewsdc.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=22&t=000365 Here is an excerpt: "Sir John Houghton, lead scientist of London’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and a lightening rod for conservative ire, said that the U.S. should be a leader in the field and aim for a zero-carbon-emission society within a generation. Several senators scoffed at this idea and demanded more information about how an end to carbon emissions could be achieved so quickly. Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, pointedly asked the scientists whether nuclear energy should be part of the solution. The scientists agreed that all options – including nuclear power – should be on the table, but that hydrogen, solar, biomass and other renewable energy should be part of any solution. Sir John said he was concerned about the proliferation of nuclear material associated with increased nuclear energy and referred to research that suggested that 25 percent of U.S. energy could come from renewable biomass energy by 2025. Sen. Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn., jumped on Sir John’s remarks, saying, “If you believe that, I don’t believe what you said earlier about global warming.” Alexander said he didn’t see “any way in the world” to get a zero-emission society in one generation without using nuclear power, which he said accounts for 70 percent of non-emission power in the U.S. and 20 percent of total power. He said that the pending energy bill was trying to address the problem with funding for nuclear power, natural gas and clean coal technology. He also said the scientific community would be more persuasive if it came out in support of a realistic strategy. “When we say, ‘What do we do about it?’ you are all over the map,” Alexander said. “We are not going to put a few solar panels on and build a few windmills and solve the problem.”" An interesting news story covering the hearing:

http://www.medillnewsdc.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=22&t=000365

Here is an excerpt:

“Sir John Houghton, lead scientist of London’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and a lightening rod for conservative ire, said that the U.S. should be a leader in the field and aim for a zero-carbon-emission society within a generation.

Several senators scoffed at this idea and demanded more information about how an end to carbon emissions could be achieved so quickly.

Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, pointedly asked the scientists whether nuclear energy should be part of the solution.

The scientists agreed that all options – including nuclear power – should be on the table, but that hydrogen, solar, biomass and other renewable energy should be part of any solution. Sir John said he was concerned about the proliferation of nuclear material associated with increased nuclear energy and referred to research that suggested that 25 percent of U.S. energy could come from renewable biomass energy by 2025.

Sen. Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn., jumped on Sir John’s remarks, saying, “If you believe that, I don’t believe what you said earlier about global warming.”

Alexander said he didn’t see “any way in the world” to get a zero-emission society in one generation without using nuclear power, which he said accounts for 70 percent of non-emission power in the U.S. and 20 percent of total power.

He said that the pending energy bill was trying to address the problem with funding for nuclear power, natural gas and clean coal technology. He also said the scientific community would be more persuasive if it came out in support of a realistic strategy.

“When we say, ‘What do we do about it?’ you are all over the map,” Alexander said. “We are not going to put a few solar panels on and build a few windmills and solve the problem.””

]]>
By: John Frankis http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3538&cpage=1#comment-1394 John Frankis Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:36:55 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3538#comment-1394 Sorry I've turned up a little late to this party, but: Dear Roger, If you "doubt that much action ... will happen on mitigation until action on decarbonization is framed in terms of its short term costs and benefits" then I conclude that you may, sadly, have never lived the American dream yourself. Never sold a set of encyclopedia to anyone, for instance, because the short term cost was the crucial factor and nobody could convince the householder that the books were, most importantly, an investment in their and their children's future? The notion that in sales and marketing reality there's a conceptual problem with selling things that will only affect the world of the customer years into the future is refuted by such everyday matters as: saving for our retirement; planting a tree for our newborn children; investing in almost anything, anywhere, that you care to nominate; or for that matter having our children at all. All of these things are costs for us today, which we happily bear for the sake of their fruits a long time in the future. Yet somehow an investment in environmental futures is different in kind to any of these other investments? I think not. We ought to be able to sell to our neighbors and friends the notion that they might plan for a retirement that not only will provide them income to live well enough upon, and no doubt occasionally travel too, but may also allow them to enjoy on their travels a world that still has coral reefs (which take hundreds of years at least to become beautiful for the tourists), has good snow skiing in accessible locations, has not flooded low lying Pacific islands and their inhabitants out of existence, is not afflicted by increasing numbers of severe storms (the shape of the statistical distribution of cyclone energies will not really change shape dramatically as the frequency of cyclones increase, will it?), heatwaves, and so on. An historically rapid change in climate will guarantee us a world where mainly weeds and rugged survivors thrive in the place of the complex and beautiful things that fill presently stable ecological niches. Anyone willing to invest in their children and their own future will be willing to pay something today for the sake of the environment tomorrow so, I conclude, if on the whole we end up failing to sell that idea to them then we'll reap in maybe 50 years time, maybe much less, something like poetic justice for a species that's had its blinkers on and been in a mad rush to go ... nowhere worth getting to. Sorry I’ve turned up a little late to this party, but:

Dear Roger,
If you “doubt that much action … will happen on mitigation until action on decarbonization is framed in terms of its short term costs and benefits” then I conclude that you may, sadly, have never lived the American dream yourself. Never sold a set of encyclopedia to anyone, for instance, because the short term cost was the crucial factor and nobody could convince the householder that the books were, most importantly, an investment in their and their children’s future?

The notion that in sales and marketing reality there’s a conceptual problem with selling things that will only affect the world of the customer years into the future is refuted by such everyday matters as: saving for our retirement; planting a tree for our newborn children; investing in almost anything, anywhere, that you care to nominate; or for that matter having our children at all. All of these things are costs for us today, which we happily bear for the sake of their fruits a long time in the future. Yet somehow an investment in environmental futures is different in kind to any of these other investments? I think not. We ought to be able to sell to our neighbors and friends the notion that they might plan for a retirement that not only will provide them income to live well enough upon, and no doubt occasionally travel too, but may also allow them to enjoy on their travels a world that still has coral reefs (which take hundreds of years at least to become beautiful for the tourists), has good snow skiing in accessible locations, has not flooded low lying Pacific islands and their inhabitants out of existence, is not afflicted by increasing numbers of severe storms (the shape of the statistical distribution of cyclone energies will not really change shape dramatically as the frequency of cyclones increase, will it?), heatwaves, and so on.

An historically rapid change in climate will guarantee us a world where mainly weeds and rugged survivors thrive in the place of the complex and beautiful things that fill presently stable ecological niches. Anyone willing to invest in their children and their own future will be willing to pay something today for the sake of the environment tomorrow so, I conclude, if on the whole we end up failing to sell that idea to them then we’ll reap in maybe 50 years time, maybe much less, something like poetic justice for a species that’s had its blinkers on and been in a mad rush to go … nowhere worth getting to.

]]>
By: Murray Duffin http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3538&cpage=1#comment-1393 Murray Duffin Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:27:30 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3538#comment-1393 Re: Your question" Why not justify Kyoto on the basis of economics"? The one thing I know is that the American Petroleum Institute paid for the WEFA study, and from then on everyone just accepted the output of the economic models, without. Murray Re: Your question” Why not justify Kyoto on the basis of economics”? The one thing I know is that the American Petroleum Institute paid for the WEFA study, and from then on everyone just accepted the output of the economic models, without. Murray

]]>
By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3538&cpage=1#comment-1392 Mark Bahner Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:56:03 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3538#comment-1392 Roger Pielke Jr. writes, "If 4 degrees is set to occur at 80-90% likelihood, then 5 degrees, which Molina clearly views as "dangerous" cannot be far behind. Prevention, simply put is not in the cards." I don't agree that such a conclusion follows logically from what Mario Molina said. Dr. Molina wrote that a doubling of CO2 (from the pre-industrial level of 280 ppm) would result in a 4 degree Fahrenheit (2.2 degree Celsius) temperature rise. So, in other words, it's a concentration of 560 ppm (CO2 equivalent) that will produce the 4 degree Fahrenheit rise. We're currently at about 380 ppm of CO2. (But throw in methane and CFCs, and most people put the CO2 equivalent level at about 450 ppm.) So we're anywhere from 180 ppm to 110 ppm below the value that will produce the increase of 4 degrees Fahrenheit, according to Molina. Since levels are increasing at about 1.7 ppm per year, it will take approximately 65 to 105 years to reach the magical 560 ppm CO2 value. That's where Molina's advice comes in. He's saying that we should make some serious changes to make sure we don't hit that 560 ppm value. Roger Pielke Jr. writes, “If 4 degrees is set to occur at 80-90% likelihood, then 5 degrees, which Molina clearly views as “dangerous” cannot be far behind. Prevention, simply put is not in the cards.”

I don’t agree that such a conclusion follows logically from what Mario Molina said. Dr. Molina wrote that a doubling of CO2 (from the pre-industrial level of 280 ppm) would result in a 4 degree Fahrenheit (2.2 degree Celsius) temperature rise.

So, in other words, it’s a concentration of 560 ppm (CO2 equivalent) that will produce the 4 degree Fahrenheit rise. We’re currently at about 380 ppm of CO2. (But throw in methane and CFCs, and most people put the CO2 equivalent level at about 450 ppm.)

So we’re anywhere from 180 ppm to 110 ppm below the value that will produce the increase of 4 degrees Fahrenheit, according to Molina. Since levels are increasing at about 1.7 ppm per year, it will take approximately 65 to 105 years to reach the magical 560 ppm CO2 value.

That’s where Molina’s advice comes in. He’s saying that we should make some serious changes to make sure we don’t hit that 560 ppm value.

]]>
By: kevin vranes http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3538&cpage=1#comment-1391 kevin vranes Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:25:45 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3538#comment-1391 Eli ealier - "Vitter [LA] and Stevens [AK] attending is interesting" I will probably write more on this at some point, but both AK senators have been making noises on climate change for a few years now, with Murkowski in the last Congress trying to get some money into the $300+B transportation bill for studying the effect of warming on AK's transportation infrastructure (Inhofe tried to shoot her down, but the dems voted with her; this was during an EPW committee markup). When the chairmanship of CST changed from McCain to Stevens this year some wondered if the frequency of climate change hearings would drop off, but so far Stevens has shown that he'll continue to engage the issue. And how can the AK Senators not? There is no other place in the US seeing such obvious change. Eli ealier -

“Vitter [LA] and Stevens [AK] attending is interesting”

I will probably write more on this at some point, but both AK senators have been making noises on climate change for a few years now, with Murkowski in the last Congress trying to get some money into the $300+B transportation bill for studying the effect of warming on AK’s transportation infrastructure (Inhofe tried to shoot her down, but the dems voted with her; this was during an EPW committee markup). When the chairmanship of CST changed from McCain to Stevens this year some wondered if the frequency of climate change hearings would drop off, but so far Stevens has shown that he’ll continue to engage the issue. And how can the AK Senators not? There is no other place in the US seeing such obvious change.

]]>