Comments on: A Review of Rising Above the Gathering Storm, Part 1 http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3745 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: kevin http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3745&cpage=1#comment-3236 kevin Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:04:07 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3745#comment-3236 Prometheus still isn't accepting trackbacks properly, so here ya go: http://scienceblogs.com/nosenada/2006/02/a_debate_worth_having_what_the.php Prometheus still isn’t accepting trackbacks properly, so here ya go:

http://scienceblogs.com/nosenada/2006/02/a_debate_worth_having_what_the.php

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By: James Wilsdon http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3745&cpage=1#comment-3235 James Wilsdon Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:28:46 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3745#comment-3235 Roger, Thanks for your thoughtful analysis - I look forward to the next installment. For me, the focus in the RAGS report on competitiveness rather than collaboration is both depressing and shortsighted, especially in relation to the growing scientific capabilities of China and India. Such constant banging of the competitiveness drum thrteatens to drown out the opportunities that are being created by the emergence of new centres of excellence. Science is not a zero sum game: more in Asia doesn’t mean less in Europe or the US. To pretend otherwise is to misunderstand the nature of innovation. In 'the new geography of science', it is those who are good at sharing knowledge who will increasingly flourish. So rather than shoring up our scientific defences - whether in the US or Europe - our priority should be developing better mechanisms for orchestrating research across international networks, and supporting our scientists to undertake joint research with their counterparts in Asia. It seems to me that this crucial dimension of the debate is largely ignored in the RAGS report. It is as if they are only interested in the 'threat' from Asia insofar as it bolsters the case for more US science spending, rather than as the basis for a serious, textured analysis of what is happening in Asian science, and what the implications (no doubt, some negative but also many positive) might be for the US. Roger, Thanks for your thoughtful analysis – I look forward to the next installment.

For me, the focus in the RAGS report on competitiveness rather than collaboration is both depressing and shortsighted, especially in relation to the growing scientific capabilities of China and India.

Such constant banging of the competitiveness drum thrteatens to drown out the opportunities that are being created by the emergence of new centres of excellence. Science is not a zero sum game: more in Asia doesn’t mean less in Europe or the US. To pretend otherwise is to misunderstand the nature of innovation.

In ‘the new geography of science’, it is those who are good at sharing knowledge who will increasingly flourish. So rather than shoring up our scientific defences – whether in the US or Europe – our priority should be developing better mechanisms for orchestrating research across international networks, and supporting our scientists to undertake joint research with their counterparts in Asia.

It seems to me that this crucial dimension of the debate is largely ignored in the RAGS report. It is as if they are only interested in the ‘threat’ from Asia insofar as it bolsters the case for more US science spending, rather than as the basis for a serious, textured analysis of what is happening in Asian science, and what the implications (no doubt, some negative but also many positive) might be for the US.

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By: Markk http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3745&cpage=1#comment-3234 Markk Mon, 27 Feb 2006 17:30:48 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3745#comment-3234 I will be interested in seeing the review of the rest of the report. Speaking as a US engineer who worked for one of the largest US global corporations, this report seems somewhat oddly focused. On the corporate level of the large (> $5B revenue) firms (that I was aware of) doing business in the US, you will hear talk about US competitiveness, but you will see that virtually all new resources are going overseas. Where are the new reasearch hubs in the US from the large companies? You might say they were already there, but if you look at budgets I would bet that virtually 100% of new allocations are going to India, China, Eastern Europe, etc. The US establishments are looking for more "efficiency" a euphemism which means the employees better start looking internally at least for different positions if they want to progress. This is just an anecdote from one person, but I do not see a career path in large companies in the US for technical people. Now this may just mean that the opportunities are in smaller companies, but I do think that what will happen is that in many large established companies in 15 years the majority of R&D will not be done in the US, in fact since the factories are also moving or already gone, I see the US portions of the companies becoming shells. The reason is emerging markets and simple costs, so I really do not see a good solution. I think the US technical community has been squeezed, and will continue to be in the future even more so regardless of government promotion. The size of the community will be smaller per capita I think, even if it grows in total and the salaries will not increase. Personally I think the government research push might be better spent on some large scale ecological surveys and ecosystem design and understanding a la The Nature Conservancy. This is basic research in a sense, but perhaps the real work here would be developing tools to allow easy surveys. I do actually like at least the start of new energy policy as well, at least the fact that all parties are realizing the future won't be the same as today. In the longer run (30 years) the overseas economies and technical prowess will be equal or better than the US, and planning now for that future might indicate risking money in ways that don't seem obvious now, and leveraging the global knowledge base more. I will be interested in seeing the review of the rest of the report.
Speaking as a US engineer who worked for one of the largest US global corporations, this report seems somewhat oddly focused. On the corporate level of the large (> $5B revenue) firms (that I was aware of) doing business in the US, you will hear talk about US competitiveness, but you will see that virtually all new resources are going overseas. Where are the new reasearch hubs in the US from the large companies? You might say they were already there, but if you look at budgets I would bet that virtually 100% of new allocations are going to India, China, Eastern Europe, etc. The US establishments are looking for more “efficiency” a euphemism which means the employees better start looking internally at least for different positions if they want to progress. This is just an anecdote from one person, but I do not see a career path in large companies in the US for technical people.

Now this may just mean that the opportunities are in smaller companies, but I do think that what will happen is that in many large established companies in 15 years the majority of R&D will not be done in the US, in fact since the factories are also moving or already gone, I see the US portions of the companies becoming shells. The reason is emerging markets and simple costs, so I really do not see a good solution. I think the US technical community has been squeezed, and will continue to be in the future even more so regardless of government promotion. The size of the community will be smaller per capita I think, even if it grows in total and the salaries will not increase.

Personally I think the government research push might be better spent on some large scale ecological surveys and ecosystem design and understanding a la The Nature Conservancy. This is basic research in a sense, but perhaps the real work here would be developing tools to allow easy surveys. I do actually like at least the start of new energy policy as well, at least the fact that all parties are realizing the future won’t be the same as today.

In the longer run (30 years) the overseas economies and technical prowess will be equal or better than the US, and planning now for that future might indicate risking money in ways that don’t seem obvious now, and leveraging the global knowledge base more.

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By: David Bruggeman http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3745&cpage=1#comment-3233 David Bruggeman Mon, 27 Feb 2006 16:38:23 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3745#comment-3233 So, it appears this document will join a long list of reports agitating for more funding and doing a lousy job of explaining why. An aside. Roger suggests: "For example, one way to encourage “riskier” research in NSF would be to do away with the second review criterion focused on broader societal impacts and focus narrowly on scientific merit." Let me also suggest that another way to encourage "riskier" research in NSF would be to truly address requirement two, or even shift emphasis toward greater societal impacts. It all depends on how you define your risk. Seems that RAGS did a lousy job of defining its terms and assumptions. Bad policy work. So, it appears this document will join a long list of reports agitating for more funding and doing a lousy job of explaining why.

An aside. Roger suggests:

“For example, one way to encourage “riskier” research in NSF would be to do away with the second review criterion focused on broader societal impacts and focus narrowly on scientific merit.”

Let me also suggest that another way to encourage “riskier” research in NSF would be to truly address requirement two, or even shift emphasis toward greater societal impacts. It all depends on how you define your risk. Seems that RAGS did a lousy job of defining its terms and assumptions. Bad policy work.

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