Comments on: The Case for Scientific Assessments http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3635 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Rabett http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3635&cpage=1#comment-1981 Rabett Sun, 23 Oct 2005 01:42:29 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3635#comment-1981 Mark's #1 is silly, because not all inputs are equally important. 2 fails for the same reason. Mark’s #1 is silly, because not all inputs are equally important. 2 fails for the same reason.

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By: Daniel Collins http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3635&cpage=1#comment-1980 Daniel Collins Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:28:50 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3635#comment-1980 Mark, The scientific method, and all its rewards, would be the worse for wear with such a scheme. Mark,
The scientific method, and all its rewards, would be the worse for wear with such a scheme.

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By: Andrew Dessler http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3635&cpage=1#comment-1979 Andrew Dessler Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:41:01 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3635#comment-1979 Mark- I'm sure I'll regret asking this, but what evidence do you have that climate scientists are intentionally making bad predictions to increase their funding? regards. Mark-

I’m sure I’ll regret asking this, but what evidence do you have that climate scientists are intentionally making bad predictions to increase their funding?

regards.

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By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3635&cpage=1#comment-1978 Mark Bahner Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:59:44 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3635#comment-1978 Another thought: 1) Start the awards much lower, but end the awards much higher. For example, for the first 10 years, award only $20,000, $10,000 and $5,000 for each parameter, but for the last 10 years award $60,000, $30,000, and $15,000 for each parameter. 2) Replace only the worst 10 every 5 years, bringing on 10 more. And allow everyone to change their predictions every 5 years. However, for the new people, and the people who change their bets, they don't get the big bucks at the end, if they're closest. Instead, they get the little bucks like is awarded for the early years. But all these changes are really just gilding the lilly. The main problem is addressed either way. Either way repairs the problem caused by the conflict of interest, wherein ridiculously high predictions (or "projections") are rewarded with more money, and accurate predictions aren't rewarded at all. Another thought:

1) Start the awards much lower, but end the awards much higher. For example, for the first 10 years, award only $20,000, $10,000 and $5,000 for each parameter, but for the last 10 years award $60,000, $30,000, and $15,000 for each parameter.

2) Replace only the worst 10 every 5 years, bringing on 10 more. And allow everyone to change their predictions every 5 years. However, for the new people, and the people who change their bets, they don’t get the big bucks at the end, if they’re closest. Instead, they get the little bucks like is awarded for the early years.

But all these changes are really just gilding the lilly. The main problem is addressed either way. Either way repairs the problem caused by the conflict of interest, wherein ridiculously high predictions (or “projections”) are rewarded with more money, and accurate predictions aren’t rewarded at all.

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By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3635&cpage=1#comment-1977 Mark Bahner Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:35:49 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3635#comment-1977 "For the climate debate, the important questions might be: 1) is the Earth warming? 2) are human activities to blame? 3) what kind of warming do we expect over the next century?" Answers: 1) Yes. 2) Yes...but to what extent is debatable. (This is not a "yes/no" question, since human influence on the degree to which the earth is warming can range zero percent to 100 percent.) (And this does not even address WHICH human activities might be responsible for the warming, e.g. what is the role of black carbon, or methane, or land use changes, versus CO2 emissions?) 3) THERE is your whole enchilada! THAT is the question--"what will happen in the future?" (especially "with or without government intervention")--that's the most important question of all. And a panel of experts, followed by a review panel of MORE experts, doesn't get away from the fundamental conflict of interest that exists. The conflict of interest is that the experts can accrue more money and fame to their area of expertise by exaggerating both the warming that will occur, and the magnitude of the ill effects that will occur. (Not to mention their conflict of interest to also ignore any benefits that might occur from a warming world.) This would be much better than a panel of experts, followed by another panel of experts: 1) Get 30 scientists. Require that every single one of the scientists provide "50 percent probability" predictions for each of the parameters of interest (e.g., methane atmospheric concentrations, CO2 emissions and atmospheric concentrations, and resultant temperature increases). 2) Pay the experts in direct relationship to the accuracy of their predictions. For example, let's say each of the experts has provided a prediction for a) methane atmospheric concentration, b) CO2 emissions, c) CO2 atmospheric concentrations, d) world surface temperature, and e) world lower tropospheric temperature, every year from 2005 to 2030. Each year, pay the one who is closest on each parameter $40,000, pay the one who is second $20,000, pay the one who is third $10,000, and pay the rest nothing. Assuming we use the 5 parameters that I mentioned above, that would be a total reward of $350,000 per year, for the next 25 years. That represents a total payout of $8.75 million. (That's probably less than 1/50th spent by the IPCC to date.) I guarantee that such a system would produce more accurate predictions than the IPCC has produced to date! (That's partially due to the fact that, as of the IPCC TAR, the IPCC has produced NO "predictions"...only pseudoscientific "projections.") The only problem with my method (from the standpoint of the "climate change community"!) is that the resultant predictions would probably be so low that fear of global warming would be considerably diminished. P.S. An even better way to do it would be to permanently drop the 15 least accurate scientists from the program each year, and to replace them with 15 more. Then allow all 30 scientists to re-predict for the remaining years. (Heh, heh, heh! Imagine that...climate scientists actually being rewarded for accurate predictions, and punished for inaccurate predictions!) “For the climate debate, the important questions might be: 1) is the Earth warming? 2) are human activities to blame? 3) what kind of warming do we expect over the next century?”

Answers:

1) Yes.

2) Yes…but to what extent is debatable. (This is not a “yes/no” question, since human influence on the degree to which the earth is warming can range zero percent to 100 percent.) (And this does not even address WHICH human activities might be responsible for the warming, e.g. what is the role of black carbon, or methane, or land use changes, versus CO2 emissions?)

3) THERE is your whole enchilada! THAT is the question–”what will happen in the future?” (especially “with or without government intervention”)–that’s the most important question of all.

And a panel of experts, followed by a review panel of MORE experts, doesn’t get away from the fundamental conflict of interest that exists. The conflict of interest is that the experts can accrue more money and fame to their area of expertise by exaggerating both the warming that will occur, and the magnitude of the ill effects that will occur. (Not to mention their conflict of interest to also ignore any benefits that might occur from a warming world.)

This would be much better than a panel of experts, followed by another panel of experts:

1) Get 30 scientists. Require that every single one of the scientists provide “50 percent probability” predictions for each of the parameters of interest (e.g., methane atmospheric concentrations, CO2 emissions and atmospheric concentrations, and resultant temperature increases).

2) Pay the experts in direct relationship to the accuracy of their predictions. For example, let’s say each of the experts has provided a prediction for a) methane atmospheric concentration, b) CO2 emissions, c) CO2 atmospheric concentrations, d) world surface temperature, and e) world lower tropospheric temperature, every year from 2005 to 2030. Each year, pay the one who is closest on each parameter $40,000, pay the one who is second $20,000, pay the one who is third $10,000, and pay the rest nothing.

Assuming we use the 5 parameters that I mentioned above, that would be a total reward of $350,000 per year, for the next 25 years. That represents a total payout of $8.75 million. (That’s probably less than 1/50th spent by the IPCC to date.)

I guarantee that such a system would produce more accurate predictions than the IPCC has produced to date! (That’s partially due to the fact that, as of the IPCC TAR, the IPCC has produced NO “predictions”…only pseudoscientific “projections.”)

The only problem with my method (from the standpoint of the “climate change community”!) is that the resultant predictions would probably be so low that fear of global warming would be considerably diminished.

P.S. An even better way to do it would be to permanently drop the 15 least accurate scientists from the program each year, and to replace them with 15 more. Then allow all 30 scientists to re-predict for the remaining years.

(Heh, heh, heh! Imagine that…climate scientists actually being rewarded for accurate predictions, and punished for inaccurate predictions!)

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By: Eben Polk http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3635&cpage=1#comment-1976 Eben Polk Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:48:53 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3635#comment-1976 This approach may be represented well I think by the new Nicholas Institute for Environmental Policy Solutions. Time will tell. Interested folks should check out http://www.env.duke.edu/institute/about.html. This approach may be represented well I think by the new Nicholas Institute for Environmental Policy Solutions. Time will tell. Interested folks should check out http://www.env.duke.edu/institute/about.html.

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By: Dylan Otto Krider http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3635&cpage=1#comment-1975 Dylan Otto Krider Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:21:19 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3635#comment-1975 I like it. Though, I assume the political wrangling would be over what questions you sent over. And it would be interesting to see the political breakdown on who would oppose such an idea, since as you say, many people have an incentive to argue the science. Whether or not you could get the votes, it would be a valuable debate to have. I like it. Though, I assume the political wrangling would be over what questions you sent over. And it would be interesting to see the political breakdown on who would oppose such an idea, since as you say, many people have an incentive to argue the science. Whether or not you could get the votes, it would be a valuable debate to have.

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