Comments on: “Practically Useful” Scientific Mischaracterizations http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3701 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: hugh http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3701&cpage=1#comment-2760 hugh Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:39:24 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3701#comment-2760 Kevin One angle to approach the "fundamental psychological problem" is from the risk perception literature, and cognitive heuristics. As a starting point Slovic gives a nice precis on the *affect* heuristic, which is suggested to allow an individual to perceive less dread from a risk if the perceived benefits are high enough. Slovic, P. (2001) The Perception of Risk Earthscan, London. I quote "Alhakami and Slovic...observed that the inverse relationship between perceived risk and perceived benefit was linked to an individual's general affective evaluation of a hazard. If an activity was 'liked' [driving an SUV?] people tended to judge its benefits as high and its risks as low. If the activity was 'disliked' [not driving an SUV?], the judgements were opposite-low benefit high risk" (p. xxxii comments added) Conceptually transferrable to include the possible perceptions of the proposed behavioral changes needed to mitigate global warming at an individual level wouldn't you say?? H Kevin

One angle to approach the “fundamental psychological problem” is from the risk perception literature, and cognitive heuristics.

As a starting point Slovic gives a nice precis on the *affect* heuristic, which is suggested to allow an individual to perceive less dread from a risk if the perceived benefits are high enough.

Slovic, P. (2001) The Perception of Risk Earthscan, London.

I quote

“Alhakami and Slovic…observed that the inverse relationship between perceived risk and perceived benefit was linked to an individual’s general affective evaluation of a hazard. If an activity was ‘liked’ [driving an SUV?] people tended to judge its benefits as high and its risks as low. If the activity was ‘disliked’ [not driving an SUV?], the judgements were opposite-low benefit high risk” (p. xxxii comments added)

Conceptually transferrable to include the possible perceptions of the proposed behavioral changes needed to mitigate global warming at an individual level wouldn’t you say??

H

]]>
By: No Se Nada http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3701&cpage=1#comment-2761 No Se Nada Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:36:41 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3701#comment-2761 <strong>NASA-Hansen on doing science and policy advocacy</strong> So 2005 has turned out to be the warmest year on record according to the NASA GISS numbers. (Note that there are a few ways to do the calculation so this should not be considered a definitive answer, but it... NASA-Hansen on doing science and policy advocacy

So 2005 has turned out to be the warmest year on record according to the NASA GISS numbers. (Note that there are a few ways to do the calculation so this should not be considered a definitive answer, but it…

]]>
By: Mark Bahner http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3701&cpage=1#comment-2759 Mark Bahner Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:46:51 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3701#comment-2759 Tom Rees, "There is a fundamental psychological problem here - studies show that people are reluctant to pay up front for hypothetical future benefits, even when the benefits far outweigh the cost" Kevin Vranes, "Can you give some links to these studies? I'm not a social scientist and so am unfamiliar with the lit, but I'd like to read them...." Here's a highly technical article: http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1086&context=are_ucb Some "money quotes" (no pun intended): "Second, discounting at a non-negligible rate makes the present value of future damages small. The effects of greenhouse gasses might not be felt for a century (if ever). At an annual discount rate of 1% we would invest 37 cents today to avoid a dollar’s worth of damages in a century, and at a discount rate of 4% that amount falls to 1.8 cents." "It seems reasonable to apply a non-negligible discount to the future, but using a constant and non-negligible discount rate makes us callous toward the far-distant future." I've just skimmed the paper, but the authors don't seem to further explain, "...makes us callous toward the far-distant future." "Callous?" Tom Rees, “There is a fundamental psychological problem here – studies show that people are reluctant to pay up front for hypothetical future benefits, even when the benefits far outweigh the cost”

Kevin Vranes, “Can you give some links to these studies? I’m not a social scientist and so am unfamiliar with the lit, but I’d like to read them….”

Here’s a highly technical article:

http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1086&context=are_ucb

Some “money quotes” (no pun intended):

“Second, discounting at a non-negligible rate makes the present value of future damages small.
The effects of greenhouse gasses might not be felt for a century (if ever). At an annual discount rate of 1% we would invest 37 cents today to avoid a dollar’s worth of damages in a century, and at a discount rate of 4% that amount falls to 1.8 cents.”

“It seems reasonable to apply a non-negligible discount to the future, but using a constant and
non-negligible discount rate makes us callous toward the far-distant future.”

I’ve just skimmed the paper, but the authors don’t seem to further explain, “…makes us callous toward the far-distant future.”

“Callous?”

]]>
By: kevin v http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3701&cpage=1#comment-2758 kevin v Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:19:34 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3701#comment-2758 Tom - "There is a fundamental psychological problem here - studies show that people are reluctant to pay up front for hypothetical future benefits, even when the benefits far outweigh the cost" Can you give some links to these studies? I'm not a social scientist and so am unfamiliar with the lit, but I'd like to read them.... Tom – “There is a fundamental psychological problem here – studies show that people are reluctant to pay up front for hypothetical future benefits, even when the benefits far outweigh the cost”

Can you give some links to these studies? I’m not a social scientist and so am unfamiliar with the lit, but I’d like to read them….

]]>
By: Tom Rees http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3701&cpage=1#comment-2757 Tom Rees Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:59:12 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3701#comment-2757 Adaptation as a public policy won't happen either - and for mostly the same reasons. The problem is too diffuse and too distant relative to the election cycle. If the US failed to prepare for a disaster as obvious as New Orleans/Katrina, then what hope is there for seriously addressing climate change? There is a fundamental psychological problem here - studies show that people are reluctant to pay up front for hypothetical future benefits, even when the benefits far outweigh the cost (the same psychology explains why people don't, in general, pay enough into their pension funds). My prediction is that the world will segway smoothly from wringing our collective hands and saying 'we must do something' to wringing our collective hands and saying 'we should've done something'! I'm planning for personal adaptation. Let's just hope that the WAIS doesn't melt - an outcome that would be difficult to adapt to! Adaptation as a public policy won’t happen either – and for mostly the same reasons. The problem is too diffuse and too distant relative to the election cycle. If the US failed to prepare for a disaster as obvious as New Orleans/Katrina, then what hope is there for seriously addressing climate change? There is a fundamental psychological problem here – studies show that people are reluctant to pay up front for hypothetical future benefits, even when the benefits far outweigh the cost (the same psychology explains why people don’t, in general, pay enough into their pension funds).

My prediction is that the world will segway smoothly from wringing our collective hands and saying ‘we must do something’ to wringing our collective hands and saying ‘we should’ve done something’!

I’m planning for personal adaptation. Let’s just hope that the WAIS doesn’t melt – an outcome that would be difficult to adapt to!

]]>
By: Roger Pielke Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3701&cpage=1#comment-2756 Roger Pielke Jr. Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:27:40 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3701#comment-2756 Tom- Well, we do seem to pretty much agree here, though if this statement of yours is indeed the case . . . "The main problem with an international carbon tax is that it would work (very effectively), but it will never happen. So, as a solution to the problem, it's a bit moribund. That doesn't necessarily differentiate it from other proposed solutions. From a pragmatic point of view, none are likely to have much effect." . . . then the problem perhaps out to be thought of as an adaptation problem rather than prevention problems as posed by the FCCC, which gets us right back to where I started this conversation. The FCCC deempahsizes adaptation, so not only does it misframe the problem, but creates an obstacles to impementation of the policy strategy that may be most needed and most effective for dealing with climate impacts! Tom- Well, we do seem to pretty much agree here, though if this statement of yours is indeed the case . . .

“The main problem with an international carbon tax is that it would work (very effectively), but it will never happen. So, as a solution to the problem, it’s a bit moribund. That doesn’t necessarily differentiate it from other proposed solutions. From a pragmatic point of view, none are likely to have much effect.”

. . . then the problem perhaps out to be thought of as an adaptation problem rather than prevention problems as posed by the FCCC, which gets us right back to where I started this conversation. The FCCC deempahsizes adaptation, so not only does it misframe the problem, but creates an obstacles to impementation of the policy strategy that may be most needed and most effective for dealing with climate impacts!

]]>
By: Tom Rees http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3701&cpage=1#comment-2755 Tom Rees Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:18:41 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3701#comment-2755 The problem may be semantic: setting threshold clearly isn't out of step with how the real world works - as you point out, the reasons for setting a threshold are obvious. Speed fines may increase with increasing speed relative to the threshold, but they are still based on a threshold. I've read through Rayner (http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/EAC%20memo%20fin.doc), and can't see where he advocates abandoning targets. He advocates carbon taxes with trading, which of course most observers agree would be a Very Good Thing. But implementation of such an approach requires a simplification of the science - you need to set a premium to the traded items. The main problem with an international carbon tax is that it would work (very effectively), but it will never happen. So, as a solution to the problem, it's a bit moribund. That doesn't necessarily differentiate it from other proposed solutions. From a pragmatic point of view, none are likely to have much effect. It just seems odd that Prof Rayner (like so many others) is weded to an idea that will not work ;) The problem may be semantic: setting threshold clearly isn’t out of step with how the real world works – as you point out, the reasons for setting a threshold are obvious. Speed fines may increase with increasing speed relative to the threshold, but they are still based on a threshold.

I’ve read through Rayner (http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/EAC%20memo%20fin.doc), and can’t see where he advocates abandoning targets. He advocates carbon taxes with trading, which of course most observers agree would be a Very Good Thing. But implementation of such an approach requires a simplification of the science – you need to set a premium to the traded items.

The main problem with an international carbon tax is that it would work (very effectively), but it will never happen. So, as a solution to the problem, it’s a bit moribund. That doesn’t necessarily differentiate it from other proposed solutions. From a pragmatic point of view, none are likely to have much effect. It just seems odd that Prof Rayner (like so many others) is weded to an idea that will not work ;)

]]>
By: Roger Pielke Jr. http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3701&cpage=1#comment-2754 Roger Pielke Jr. Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:24:21 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3701#comment-2754 Tom- Thanks, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Any time that you have a continuous function, whether the impacts of heart disease or climate impacts and you choose to introduce a threshold approach to intervention, you are making a decision to implement a policy that is out of step with how the world works. In principle, why wouldn't a continuous function of impact require a contuous funtion in response? (By the way speed limits in may places are enforced this way with greater fines for greater speeds above the limit). Well, the reasons for why thresholds make sense are obvious, such as, the complexity of implementing a continuous function in response versus the simplicity of a threshold approach, benefits exceeding costs of adopting a threshold approach, clarity of decision rules in plementation, unambiguous metrics of performance, etc. etc. As has been pointed out setting a threshold for action, and the selection of the variables to be considered as triggers, in any context are based on values. But so too is the decision to frame a problem as a threshold problem rather than as a some other sort of problem. In the case of climate change, it seems pretty clear to date that the performance of international climate policy with respect to its own stated goals strongly suggests that either the threshold was chosen poorly (DAI) or that the problem was fundamentally misconceived to begin with (a la Rayner). Excuses why performance hasn't been better than it has underscore this point. When people start providing empirical evidence that the current approach is working based on ANY relevant metrics, I will be open to changing my mind. But so far all I here is theoretical arguments aboout why the climate problem is properly framed in theory. That doesn't get us very far in the real world. I continue to be amazed at how people (in general) who claim to be concerned about climate change are so wedded to a policy framework that has not, can not, and will not work. Thanks! Tom-

Thanks, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. Any time that you have a continuous function, whether the impacts of heart disease or climate impacts and you choose to introduce a threshold approach to intervention, you are making a decision to implement a policy that is out of step with how the world works. In principle, why wouldn’t a continuous function of impact require a contuous funtion in response? (By the way speed limits in may places are enforced this way with greater fines for greater speeds above the limit).

Well, the reasons for why thresholds make sense are obvious, such as, the complexity of implementing a continuous function in response versus the simplicity of a threshold approach, benefits exceeding costs of adopting a threshold approach, clarity of decision rules in plementation, unambiguous metrics of performance, etc. etc.

As has been pointed out setting a threshold for action, and the selection of the variables to be considered as triggers, in any context are based on values. But so too is the decision to frame a problem as a threshold problem rather than as a some other sort of problem. In the case of climate change, it seems pretty clear to date that the performance of international climate policy with respect to its own stated goals strongly suggests that either the threshold was chosen poorly (DAI) or that the problem was fundamentally misconceived to begin with (a la Rayner). Excuses why performance hasn’t been better than it has underscore this point.

When people start providing empirical evidence that the current approach is working based on ANY relevant metrics, I will be open to changing my mind. But so far all I here is theoretical arguments aboout why the climate problem is properly framed in theory. That doesn’t get us very far in the real world. I continue to be amazed at how people (in general) who claim to be concerned about climate change are so wedded to a policy framework that has not, can not, and will not work.

Thanks!

]]>
By: Tom Rees http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3701&cpage=1#comment-2753 Tom Rees Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:24:37 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3701#comment-2753 Roger, setting thresholds for a complex problem does not require the science to be mischaracterized. Take something I happen to know a bit about: cardiovascular disease. Lots of different factors contribute (blood pressure, obesity, exercise etc) in a continuous fashion, and they interact. In order to implement a prevention strategy, thresholds are set. Increasingly, the trend is to attempt to provide an integrated measure of risk (by integrating the different factors in a risk model) This doesn't require the science to be dumbed down or misrepresented - the targets in this case are set by the scientists themselves, rather than politicians. The setting of a target simply reflects the fact that if you want to introduce an intervention, you need some benchmark by which to assess its effectiveness. Similarly, if you are concerned about global warming, then you have a number of options (you can set targets for individual effectors, you can set targets for overall effectors by converting them into equivalents, you can set a target for temperature change (either global or regional) or you can set a target for impacts. All of these have pros and cons, none of them require the science to be misrepresented.(e.g. see http://www.cicero.uio.no/publications/detail.asp?publication_id=2776 ) The Kyoto Protocol went for option B. There is some justification for this, since research before and since indicates that the climate impact of a variety of factors is largely independent of their nature (a major exception being land use changes). Now, that may or may not be the best metric. But a metric is necessary. I don't know much about Senator Inofe, but I suspect the problem here is something different. By the sound of it, he's forumating policy on the basis of an simplified awareness of the science. That's a different thing from formulating a policy target(s) based on a detailed awareness of the science. Roger, setting thresholds for a complex problem does not require the science to be mischaracterized. Take something I happen to know a bit about: cardiovascular disease. Lots of different factors contribute (blood pressure, obesity, exercise etc) in a continuous fashion, and they interact. In order to implement a prevention strategy, thresholds are set. Increasingly, the trend is to attempt to provide an integrated measure of risk (by integrating the different factors in a risk model) This doesn’t require the science to be dumbed down or misrepresented – the targets in this case are set by the scientists themselves, rather than politicians. The setting of a target simply reflects the fact that if you want to introduce an intervention, you need some benchmark by which to assess its effectiveness.

Similarly, if you are concerned about global warming, then you have a number of options (you can set targets for individual effectors, you can set targets for overall effectors by converting them into equivalents, you can set a target for temperature change (either global or regional) or you can set a target for impacts. All of these have pros and cons, none of them require the science to be misrepresented.(e.g. see http://www.cicero.uio.no/publications/detail.asp?publication_id=2776 )

The Kyoto Protocol went for option B. There is some justification for this, since research before and since indicates that the climate impact of a variety of factors is largely independent of their nature (a major exception being land use changes). Now, that may or may not be the best metric. But a metric is necessary.

I don’t know much about Senator Inofe, but I suspect the problem here is something different. By the sound of it, he’s forumating policy on the basis of an simplified awareness of the science. That’s a different thing from formulating a policy target(s) based on a detailed awareness of the science.

]]>
By: Rabett http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=3701&cpage=1#comment-2752 Rabett Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:44:40 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheusreborn/?p=3701#comment-2752 Roger, I have a short response to your statement" I am on record as arguing that scientists are increasingly enegaing (?? your probably mean engaging in) policy through policy advocacy as compared to other forms of enagagement, but that is a hypothesis and also not systematically studied (though I think a strong case can be made for it)." Edward Teller. Roger, I have a short response to your statement” I am on record as arguing that scientists are increasingly enegaing (?? your probably mean engaging in) policy through policy advocacy as compared to other forms of enagagement, but that is a hypothesis and also not systematically studied (though I think a strong case can be made for it).”

Edward Teller.

]]>