Comments on: US Mitigation Math http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: C3H Editor http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039&cpage=1#comment-12974 C3H Editor Mon, 16 Mar 2009 02:14:49 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039#comment-12974 As Roger & others who post here always leave me in the dust, I have to struggle with non-familiar concepts to try to keep up. Presently, I'm hung up with the Mitigation Math as it's not making environmental, economic or business sense to me. Roger's calcs suggest a 15% reduction of CO2 emissions by 2020 will result in 1.13 Gt less CO2 emitted. That 1.13 Gt equates to 0.14 ppm CO2 that has not been added to atmosphere in year 2020. If the climate has a 1.5 degree C sensitivity to a doubling of CO2 from a 380ppm base, the overall impact of a 15% reduction appears to be 0.00055 degree C. Are my climate temperature impact calculations totally off the wall, or does everyone here just happen to know the impact is ludicrously low and basically unmeasurable? I gotta believe I made a major mistake in my arithmetic because I can't imagine anyone would propose a 15% reduction resulting in such a tiny temperature "benefit" that I'm calculating. (Note: if anyone can put together here a lucid explanation of the arithmetic regarding the global temperature impact of a 15% U.S. reduction of CO2 emissions by 2020, I'd be glad to post their explanation on my beginner's site also, of course with full credit to author.) Thanks to any takers. As Roger & others who post here always leave me in the dust, I have to struggle with non-familiar concepts to try to keep up. Presently, I’m hung up with the Mitigation Math as it’s not making environmental, economic or business sense to me.

Roger’s calcs suggest a 15% reduction of CO2 emissions by 2020 will result in 1.13 Gt less CO2 emitted. That 1.13 Gt equates to 0.14 ppm CO2 that has not been added to atmosphere in year 2020. If the climate has a 1.5 degree C sensitivity to a doubling of CO2 from a 380ppm base, the overall impact of a 15% reduction appears to be 0.00055 degree C.

Are my climate temperature impact calculations totally off the wall, or does everyone here just happen to know the impact is ludicrously low and basically unmeasurable? I gotta believe I made a major mistake in my arithmetic because I can’t imagine anyone would propose a 15% reduction resulting in such a tiny temperature “benefit” that I’m calculating.

(Note: if anyone can put together here a lucid explanation of the arithmetic regarding the global temperature impact of a 15% U.S. reduction of CO2 emissions by 2020, I’d be glad to post their explanation on my beginner’s site also, of course with full credit to author.) Thanks to any takers.

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By: asahopkins http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039&cpage=1#comment-12970 asahopkins Mon, 16 Mar 2009 00:42:38 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039#comment-12970 This post is confusing on the topic of primary energy use vs. usable energy (electrons on the grid). The AEO forecast quads are all for primary energy -- this is the raw energy in the fuel itself. (1 kg of solid coal has a certain amount of "primary energy".) Given a OECD average coal power plant efficiency of 37%, the 22.75 quads of coal burned in 2007 generated only 8.4 quads of electricity. (This is before transmission line losses, etc, but those are the same for all technologies, except efficiency.) Natural gas plants are a bit more efficient, at 45%. The transportation sector uses primary energy directly (liquid fuel into your car), so that part is "100% efficient" compared with electricity. (The inefficiency is counted in a different place.) Since not all petroleum is used in cars, let's assume it's 95% efficient when counting "usable energy". AEO Renewables are calculated directly from the energy in the lines, not from "primary energy" of sunlight falling on a given square meter, so they are effectively 100% efficient for this comparison. Nuclear is counted the same way (I think). The upshot of this is that instead of working with 102 quads of primary energy, we ought to be thinking about 72.6 quads of "used" energy in 2007. The most recent AEO numbers (downloaded from http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/forecasting.html and then adjusted in Excel)) show this "used" number growing to 75.2 quads in 2020. I'm a big efficiency fan, but let's assume that number is un-changeable. Can we shuffle the proportion around between sources to add up to 75.2, while still cutting greenhouse gas emissions by 14% before 2007? Of course. Start by cutting coal in half. If the average coal plant has a lifetime of 30 years, this should be happening anyway over the next 15 or so years, as long as we don't build new plants. 4.5 quads of used coal electricity comes from 12.2 quads of primary coal energy. Expand natural gas a bit: 13.1 quads of used natural gas power comes from 29.1 quads of primary energy (AEO forecasts 24 quads of NG). Leave petroleum where the AEO says, at 39 quads of primary energy. The AEO forecasts renewables growing from 6.3 to 9.4 quads. If this is accelerated to 11.5 quads, and nuclear stays where it is, we have 75.2 quads of "usable" energy on the grids/roads, using only 100.7 quads of primary energy, and emitting 86.3% of the carbon emitted in 2007. Electric efficiency enters the computation the same way renewables do (and in fact better because it avoids the few% transmission line losses). So, if you don't think we can grow renewables at a big boost over the AEO rate, just think about how to save 2.1 quads of end-user energy (per year) without hurting quality of life. Given that this is just 3% or so of total use, it's not hard to imagine. (Refrigerators, for example, can easily be 20% more efficient today -- look at all the Energy Star models available --and that's not built into the AEO model.) What happens if we set the "used" energy in 2020 equal to the "used" energy in 2007? If we just need a "useable" energy of 72.6 quads, we can even leave renewables where the AEO predicts them to be in 2020, and just do a straight swap of coal for natural gas and efficiency. Accelerated renewable R&D beyond the AEO forecast can push the natural gas number down, too. It's fun to play with numbers, but this post creates a false problem by ignoring the fact that the AEO numbers quoted are in _primary energy_ terms. I haven't addressed any policy question here of how one would do this, but any option which results in enough increased renewables, efficiency, and natural gas at the expense of coal (relative to the AEO baseline) ought to work. This post is confusing on the topic of primary energy use vs. usable energy (electrons on the grid).

The AEO forecast quads are all for primary energy — this is the raw energy in the fuel itself. (1 kg of solid coal has a certain amount of “primary energy”.) Given a OECD average coal power plant efficiency of 37%, the 22.75 quads of coal burned in 2007 generated only 8.4 quads of electricity. (This is before transmission line losses, etc, but those are the same for all technologies, except efficiency.) Natural gas plants are a bit more efficient, at 45%. The transportation sector uses primary energy directly (liquid fuel into your car), so that part is “100% efficient” compared with electricity. (The inefficiency is counted in a different place.) Since not all petroleum is used in cars, let’s assume it’s 95% efficient when counting “usable energy”. AEO Renewables are calculated directly from the energy in the lines, not from “primary energy” of sunlight falling on a given square meter, so they are effectively 100% efficient for this comparison. Nuclear is counted the same way (I think). The upshot of this is that instead of working with 102 quads of primary energy, we ought to be thinking about 72.6 quads of “used” energy in 2007. The most recent AEO numbers (downloaded from http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/forecasting.html and then adjusted in Excel)) show this “used” number growing to 75.2 quads in 2020.

I’m a big efficiency fan, but let’s assume that number is un-changeable. Can we shuffle the proportion around between sources to add up to 75.2, while still cutting greenhouse gas emissions by 14% before 2007? Of course. Start by cutting coal in half. If the average coal plant has a lifetime of 30 years, this should be happening anyway over the next 15 or so years, as long as we don’t build new plants. 4.5 quads of used coal electricity comes from 12.2 quads of primary coal energy. Expand natural gas a bit: 13.1 quads of used natural gas power comes from 29.1 quads of primary energy (AEO forecasts 24 quads of NG). Leave petroleum where the AEO says, at 39 quads of primary energy. The AEO forecasts renewables growing from 6.3 to 9.4 quads. If this is accelerated to 11.5 quads, and nuclear stays where it is, we have 75.2 quads of “usable” energy on the grids/roads, using only 100.7 quads of primary energy, and emitting 86.3% of the carbon emitted in 2007.

Electric efficiency enters the computation the same way renewables do (and in fact better because it avoids the few% transmission line losses). So, if you don’t think we can grow renewables at a big boost over the AEO rate, just think about how to save 2.1 quads of end-user energy (per year) without hurting quality of life. Given that this is just 3% or so of total use, it’s not hard to imagine. (Refrigerators, for example, can easily be 20% more efficient today — look at all the Energy Star models available –and that’s not built into the AEO model.)

What happens if we set the “used” energy in 2020 equal to the “used” energy in 2007? If we just need a “useable” energy of 72.6 quads, we can even leave renewables where the AEO predicts them to be in 2020, and just do a straight swap of coal for natural gas and efficiency. Accelerated renewable R&D beyond the AEO forecast can push the natural gas number down, too.

It’s fun to play with numbers, but this post creates a false problem by ignoring the fact that the AEO numbers quoted are in _primary energy_ terms. I haven’t addressed any policy question here of how one would do this, but any option which results in enough increased renewables, efficiency, and natural gas at the expense of coal (relative to the AEO baseline) ought to work.

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By: docpine http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039&cpage=1#comment-12943 docpine Sat, 14 Mar 2009 19:49:46 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039#comment-12943 I am confused about whether some of these numbers are projections or existing and by the number of EIA reports.. but looking at this. From the EIA site linked in the post: Hydro 2.5 Geot 0.35 Solar 0.08 Wind 0.32 Bio 3.6 Bio is 9 x (solar + wind), yet some states don't even talk about bio in their renewable portfolio (or so I am told). What am I missing? Are we there already, so bio doesn't need the attention/subsidies of solar and wind? I am confused about whether some of these numbers are projections or existing and by the number of EIA reports.. but looking at this.

From the EIA site linked in the post:

Hydro 2.5
Geot 0.35
Solar 0.08
Wind 0.32
Bio 3.6

Bio is 9 x (solar + wind), yet some states don’t even talk about bio in their renewable portfolio (or so I am told). What am I missing? Are we there already, so bio doesn’t need the attention/subsidies of solar and wind?

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By: maurmike http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039&cpage=1#comment-12940 maurmike Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:34:37 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039#comment-12940 #26 Carl Koval New Jersey was subsidizing solar cell installation for a few years. I estimated (their calculator)the cost of replacing 0.75 of my average kilowatt usage. The cost over $40K and even with NJ putting up $27K it didn't pay out for 10years. Mike McHenry, NJ #26 Carl Koval

New Jersey was subsidizing solar cell installation for a few years. I estimated (their calculator)the cost of replacing 0.75 of my average kilowatt usage. The cost over $40K and even with NJ putting up $27K it didn’t pay out for 10years.
Mike McHenry, NJ

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By: Carl Koval http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039&cpage=1#comment-12938 Carl Koval Sat, 14 Mar 2009 17:38:52 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039#comment-12938 Hi Roger, I think there is another reality check associated with the wind and solar only option, and that is the combination of energy payback time (the time it takes for a PV panel or wind turbine to produce more energy that it took to make it in the first place) and rapid growth of an industry. This is especially a problem for Si-based PV (currently 95% of the market) where the payback time is about 3 years (at least that is what I am told by contacts at NREL). If you are looking at a short time scale (e.g. 2020), I think you need to look at how much net energy wind and solar are producing, because the energy needed to rapidly grow the industry will still be coming from fossil fuels. I wrote a simple spreadsheet for this at some point and the results were depressing. At high growth rates (e.g. 50% per year) the Si-based PV industry can actually consume more energy that it produces. Of course, eventually growth of the renewable industry lowers the carbon intensity of the overall energy supply, and the growth actually lowers carbon emissions. But I doubt if that happens by 2020. Best, Carl Hi Roger, I think there is another reality check associated with the wind and solar only option, and that is the combination of energy payback time (the time it takes for a PV panel or wind turbine to produce more energy that it took to make it in the first place) and rapid growth of an industry. This is especially a problem for Si-based PV (currently 95% of the market) where the payback time is about 3 years (at least that is what I am told by contacts at NREL). If you are looking at a short time scale (e.g. 2020), I think you need to look at how much net energy wind and solar are producing, because the energy needed to rapidly grow the industry will still be coming from fossil fuels. I wrote a simple spreadsheet for this at some point and the results were depressing. At high growth rates (e.g. 50% per year) the Si-based PV industry can actually consume more energy that it produces. Of course, eventually growth of the renewable industry lowers the carbon intensity of the overall energy supply, and the growth actually lowers carbon emissions. But I doubt if that happens by 2020.
Best, Carl

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By: C3H Editor http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039&cpage=1#comment-12872 C3H Editor Thu, 12 Mar 2009 01:22:52 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039#comment-12872 Thanks. Yep, I thought it was to be read as 14/100's of 1 part per million, which is obviously very tiny. Not being a scientist, I just assumed this would have literally zero impact on temps and would require a huge amount of investment to achieve, and an un-godly disruption in economic activity to boot. Thanks. Yep, I thought it was to be read as 14/100’s of 1 part per million, which is obviously very tiny. Not being a scientist, I just assumed this would have literally zero impact on temps and would require a huge amount of investment to achieve, and an un-godly disruption in economic activity to boot.

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By: maurmike http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039&cpage=1#comment-12869 maurmike Wed, 11 Mar 2009 23:57:27 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039#comment-12869 It would be 0.14/ 1,000,000. After accounting for absorbtion it's 0.07/1,000,000. The climate impact would not be discernable in 2020 or 2050 for that matter. It would be 0.14/ 1,000,000. After accounting for absorbtion it’s 0.07/1,000,000. The climate impact would not be discernable in 2020 or 2050 for that matter.

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By: C3H Editor http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039&cpage=1#comment-12868 C3H Editor Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:44:54 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039#comment-12868 Really valuable information. I have not seen anything like this before. Regarding your previous response to a commenter: “1 ppmv of CO2= 2.13 Gt of carbon” http://cdiac.ornl.gov/pns/faq.html *to convert to CO2 . . . 2.13 * 3.664 = 7.8 Gt CO2 *so for 2020, under the EIA assumptions (in GtCO2): 6.225 - 5.095 = 1.13 GtCO2 1.13/7.8 = 0.14 ppm in 2020 The bottom line here is a reduction of atmospheric CO2 of 14/100's, correct? Based on current climate model sensitivity, what would be the temperature reduction of this outcome by 2020? Is there a way to estimate the dollar cost of this project(s) to achieve this? Really valuable information. I have not seen anything like this before.

Regarding your previous response to a commenter:

“1 ppmv of CO2= 2.13 Gt of carbon”
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/pns/faq.html

*to convert to CO2 . . . 2.13 * 3.664 = 7.8 Gt CO2

*so for 2020, under the EIA assumptions (in GtCO2):

6.225 – 5.095 = 1.13 GtCO2

1.13/7.8 = 0.14 ppm in 2020

The bottom line here is a reduction of atmospheric CO2 of 14/100’s, correct?

Based on current climate model sensitivity, what would be the temperature reduction of this outcome by 2020? Is there a way to estimate the dollar cost of this project(s) to achieve this?

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By: MJ http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039&cpage=1#comment-12864 MJ Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:48:50 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039#comment-12864 I would tend to agree with tomfid that for a reader to come up with a viable plan alone could take considerable time, as we are not all experts nor have the time to fully digest all the necessary data to propose such a plan. However, we should be coming to a consensus about what is feasible if it is not 14%. Reality maybe that 14% is not attainable, but if it is not what is a reasonable number? It is unfortunate that in public policy situations we too often have a ‘single number’ goal, and if we can’t reach it then we revert to the ‘why try’ mentality. So might the better exercise be to determine what values are easily, reasonably, and challenging to obtain and try to work from that perspective? Roger, I am curious if you have a number you think might be reasonable? I know with an initial post it is sometimes best to leave such thoughts off the table, but now that there is some response I would be curious what your take is. Certainly any solution is going to involve a mix of processes to achieve the goal, just like when a company sets profit objectives for the year and works towards that objective from all cost and revenue aspects of the business. I personally feel that consumption changes could play a larger role. Having lived outside the US for a significant number of years, I wonder if shifting away from a 24 hour (always open) mentality might not have a meaningful impact on consumption levels? I think there is a fair amount of unneeded consumption that keeps everything going full steam around the clock. I would tend to agree with tomfid that for a reader to come up with a viable plan alone could take considerable time, as we are not all experts nor have the time to fully digest all the necessary data to propose such a plan. However, we should be coming to a consensus about what is feasible if it is not 14%.

Reality maybe that 14% is not attainable, but if it is not what is a reasonable number? It is unfortunate that in public policy situations we too often have a ‘single number’ goal, and if we can’t reach it then we revert to the ‘why try’ mentality. So might the better exercise be to determine what values are easily, reasonably, and challenging to obtain and try to work from that perspective?

Roger, I am curious if you have a number you think might be reasonable? I know with an initial post it is sometimes best to leave such thoughts off the table, but now that there is some response I would be curious what your take is.

Certainly any solution is going to involve a mix of processes to achieve the goal, just like when a company sets profit objectives for the year and works towards that objective from all cost and revenue aspects of the business. I personally feel that consumption changes could play a larger role. Having lived outside the US for a significant number of years, I wonder if shifting away from a 24 hour (always open) mentality might not have a meaningful impact on consumption levels? I think there is a fair amount of unneeded consumption that keeps everything going full steam around the clock.

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By: nearwalden http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039&cpage=1#comment-12860 nearwalden Wed, 11 Mar 2009 03:14:41 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5039#comment-12860 I tried to see if I could reach the reduction goal if I used the Obama administration's projected $645B from carbon allowance auctions to reduce energy use or decarbonize the supply: http://nearwalden.com/blog/?p=963 I tried to see if I could reach the reduction goal if I used the Obama administration’s projected $645B from carbon allowance auctions to reduce energy use or decarbonize the supply: http://nearwalden.com/blog/?p=963

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