Comments on: A National Climate Service? http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285 Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:36:51 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Kmye http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285&cpage=1#comment-14005 Kmye Sat, 30 May 2009 00:40:46 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285#comment-14005 Jeff: I think new information that presents decision-makers with more informed options in more accurate cost-benefit frameworks should be a good thing. I could support this in an ideal world, and maybe my fears are unfounded anyway, but I'm not at all convinced that there wouldn't be a significant difference in this organization's budget, and perhaps authority, in a near-to-midterm future where CO2-driven AGW is still considered an immediate, catastrophic, AND mostly unaddressed/"unsolved" problem, as opposed to one where it isn't. If this potential disparity is realistic, and if the NCS's work would deal, for example, with projecting regional effects and costs of projected temperature rises or assessing the efficacy and cost-effectiveness of solutions such as air capture or just adaptation, it seems like there's a very real potential for conflict of interest (a conflict of interest like this worrying me much more being in a government beauracracy than in academia in general) pushing the NCS in the direction of inflated costs, exacerbated dangers, and diminished effectiveness of simple solutions. As one who thinks we'll never develop any rational policy on this issue until we turn away from the precautionary principle and begin looking at things in a cost-benefit framework where uncertainty in projections is honestly and accurately taken into account, I'm concerned a NCS would have strong incentives to produce data and positions that unjustly lead policy makers in the other direction. Jeff:

I think new information that presents decision-makers with more informed options in more accurate cost-benefit frameworks should be a good thing.

I could support this in an ideal world, and maybe my fears are unfounded anyway, but I’m not at all convinced that there wouldn’t be a significant difference in this organization’s budget, and perhaps authority, in a near-to-midterm future where CO2-driven AGW is still considered an immediate, catastrophic, AND mostly unaddressed/”unsolved” problem, as opposed to one where it isn’t.

If this potential disparity is realistic, and if the NCS’s work would deal, for example, with projecting regional effects and costs of projected temperature rises or assessing the efficacy and cost-effectiveness of solutions such as air capture or just adaptation, it seems like there’s a very real potential for conflict of interest (a conflict of interest like this worrying me much more being in a government beauracracy than in academia in general) pushing the NCS in the direction of inflated costs, exacerbated dangers, and diminished effectiveness of simple solutions.

As one who thinks we’ll never develop any rational policy on this issue until we turn away from the precautionary principle and begin looking at things in a cost-benefit framework where uncertainty in projections is honestly and accurately taken into account, I’m concerned a NCS would have strong incentives to produce data and positions that unjustly lead policy makers in the other direction.

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By: Jeff http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285&cpage=1#comment-13995 Jeff Fri, 29 May 2009 13:45:37 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285#comment-13995 Kmye: The existence or not of AGW is completely irrelevant to the concept of a National Climate Service. Climactic changes affect all of us and having better information and understanding of what is going on can lead to better decionmaking that saves money, conserves resources and and potentially protects life and property. When it comes right down to it, a water resource manager out west doesn't care either way about AGW. His job depends on allocating scarce resources between a multitude of constituents all demanding it. You think he wouldn't like better information, data and understanding of what drought conditions were going to do to his area 6 months to a year in the future? These are the types of services that would be provided. Kmye:

The existence or not of AGW is completely irrelevant to the concept of a National Climate Service. Climactic changes affect all of us and having better information and understanding of what is going on can lead to better decionmaking that saves money, conserves resources and and potentially protects life and property.

When it comes right down to it, a water resource manager out west doesn’t care either way about AGW. His job depends on allocating scarce resources between a multitude of constituents all demanding it. You think he wouldn’t like better information, data and understanding of what drought conditions were going to do to his area 6 months to a year in the future? These are the types of services that would be provided.

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By: David Bruggeman http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285&cpage=1#comment-13994 David Bruggeman Fri, 29 May 2009 13:25:16 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285#comment-13994 This proposed climate service is not unique in that respect among science agencies. Nixon shut down the predecessors to both the OSTP and PCAST because he wasn't happy with their output. Look at NASA and how it did and didn't approach safety concerns over the last 25 years. This proposed climate service is not unique in that respect among science agencies. Nixon shut down the predecessors to both the OSTP and PCAST because he wasn’t happy with their output. Look at NASA and how it did and didn’t approach safety concerns over the last 25 years.

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By: Kmye http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285&cpage=1#comment-13992 Kmye Fri, 29 May 2009 04:40:56 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285#comment-13992 My point is, I'd imagine if real new data and projections started to lean towards AGW not being as catastrophic an issue as it's being painted as now, or if simple low cost solutions to reducing atmospheric CO2 other than direct emissions reductions came along that similarly made AGW a less pressing issue, if that became public, it certainly seems possible the new bureaucracy might receive significantly less funding, and thus have a disincentive to report that data, those projections, or those new solutions, completely accurately and without a spin that would at least help the bureaucracy's survival... My point is, I’d imagine if real new data and projections started to lean towards AGW not being as catastrophic an issue as it’s being painted as now, or if simple low cost solutions to reducing atmospheric CO2 other than direct emissions reductions came along that similarly made AGW a less pressing issue, if that became public, it certainly seems possible the new bureaucracy might receive significantly less funding, and thus have a disincentive to report that data, those projections, or those new solutions, completely accurately and without a spin that would at least help the bureaucracy’s survival…

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By: David Bruggeman http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285&cpage=1#comment-13990 David Bruggeman Fri, 29 May 2009 04:15:53 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285#comment-13990 Doesn't the funding and/or long-term status of all scientific government bureaucracies depend on what they produce? Doesn’t the funding and/or long-term status of all scientific government bureaucracies depend on what they produce?

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By: Kmye http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285&cpage=1#comment-13988 Kmye Fri, 29 May 2009 04:10:42 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285#comment-13988 Is it overly paranoid to be unsettled by a scientific government bureaucracy being created whose funding and perhaps long-term existence could likely depend on the data it collects or generates - as well as the general picture it paints through press releases, etc. - turning out a certain a way? Is it overly paranoid to be unsettled by a scientific government bureaucracy being created whose funding and perhaps long-term existence could likely depend on the data it collects or generates – as well as the general picture it paints through press releases, etc. – turning out a certain a way?

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By: Maurice Garoutte http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285&cpage=1#comment-13984 Maurice Garoutte Thu, 28 May 2009 19:09:05 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285#comment-13984 A centralized and trusted repository for historical observed data would be a good thing. Adding research to develop policy related projections would place science back in its proper place; under thumb of the bureaucracy. A centralized and trusted repository for historical observed data would be a good thing.

Adding research to develop policy related projections would place science back in its proper place; under thumb of the bureaucracy.

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By: Jeff http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285&cpage=1#comment-13982 Jeff Thu, 28 May 2009 15:49:33 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285#comment-13982 The Climate Service is an interesting idea that was originally proposed, I believe, by the National Acadamies and really championed by Bush's NOAA Administrator, Admiral Lautenbacher. In general, he saw a world that was increasingly becoming reliant on climate data, modeling and information but without a trusted, accountable source for said data. In much the same way as the Weather Service has become the sole official source for weather information (except for the military perhaps), the Climate Service would fill a current void for similar information. If you're looking to build a multi-million dollar wind-energy project, where do you get the data on the best place to cite the project for the next 5, 10, 15 years? How does the insurance and risk management industry calculate the true risk of coastal residents to hurricane damage over the same time period? And if you're installing a multi-billion dollar cap-and-trade scheme, how do you accuratly measure sources of carbon, where carbon moves and how effective the scheme is? Given the effect on climate of nearly every industry, a National Climate Service is important regardless of where you stand on the issue of AGW and hopefully it won't get caught up in the politics of the climate issue. Giving people more data and information for their decisions is a good idea. The Climate Service is an interesting idea that was originally proposed, I believe, by the National Acadamies and really championed by Bush’s NOAA Administrator, Admiral Lautenbacher.

In general, he saw a world that was increasingly becoming reliant on climate data, modeling and information but without a trusted, accountable source for said data. In much the same way as the Weather Service has become the sole official source for weather information (except for the military perhaps), the Climate Service would fill a current void for similar information.

If you’re looking to build a multi-million dollar wind-energy project, where do you get the data on the best place to cite the project for the next 5, 10, 15 years? How does the insurance and risk management industry calculate the true risk of coastal residents to hurricane damage over the same time period? And if you’re installing a multi-billion dollar cap-and-trade scheme, how do you accuratly measure sources of carbon, where carbon moves and how effective the scheme is?

Given the effect on climate of nearly every industry, a National Climate Service is important regardless of where you stand on the issue of AGW and hopefully it won’t get caught up in the politics of the climate issue. Giving people more data and information for their decisions is a good idea.

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By: Twitted by Omnibudsman http://cstpr.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285&cpage=1#comment-13979 Twitted by Omnibudsman Wed, 27 May 2009 22:20:49 +0000 http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/?p=5285#comment-13979 [...] This post was Twitted by Omnibudsman - Real-url.org [...] [...] This post was Twitted by Omnibudsman – Real-url.org [...]

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